Par 4 and 5's are killing me

[sirhacksalot]

I have gotten my HI to an 18.4.  I played a par three course while away on training and shot 11 over on sanded / aerated greens.

I do well on the driving range but anytime i am on the course and  start trying to hit far to set up a good approach my game is lost.  I know every guy on here can hit 300+, on the range I know that I can get a few rollers out that far but probably average 255-260. But it is ridiculous that off a tee my good shots either spray to the nearest hazard or travel the length of a solid 5/6 iron for me.  Going to shorter clubs marginally helps but the problem usually doesn't change.  I once dropped and hit my 3 wood off the deck out of the rough next to the tee box and it went 215-225 straight.  Climbed the tee box used same 3 wood, same brand ball. One- in the woods, 3rd- in the water, 5th- 110 yard warm burner.

I've tried music, clearing my mind, clouding my mind. No practice swings / 10 practice swings. Using a new driver, using an old driver.  3 wood, 3 iron, 4 iron etc

 

[metbid]

The biggest difference I see between a practice range and on the course is mindset.  When I am on the practice range, I am not trying to hit or control the ball, I am swinging the club.  As soon as I move to the course I tend to try to 'hit' the ball instead of swing.  Perhaps, if you take your focus off the ball and on to maybe one swing thought, like making a full swing and holding your finish for several seconds, it might help.  One other trick (on myself) that I use is, instead of concentrating on the ball, I do a couple practice swings, set up my normal address to the ball, but then pick a spot ( like a blade of grass) just in front of the ball and concentrate on swinging over that spot.

[dave s]

Possible advice you - Develop a couple of 'go-to' shots that always work for you.  Here's an example:  When I'm not driving the ball well, I aim at the left edge of the fairway, open the driver face and swing at about 75% power.  This produces a nice high fade that finds the fairway at around 200 yards.  It works.

On long par 4s and par 5s, the obvious second shot is a fairway wood.  For me, flushing a 5-wood (first choice) or a 3-wood is about a 20% success rate.  I read an article in Golf Digest that said for higher handicappers (you AND me!) a better play is a go-to fairway club that splits that 240 yard shot into two equal shots.  This would leave you with a pair of 7- or 8-irons.  Both of those clubs in MY bag are much higher percentage for success than flushing the fairway wood that's not going to get there anyhow, any day of the week.

Plenty of times on par 5s I've hit 5 hybrid or even a 7-iron to get myself into a range where I can throw a wedge or really short iron onto the green and hope to get close.  Hitting a wedge or 9-iron for my 3rd shot on a par 5 is much preferable than rolling a 5-wood, or hitting it into the trees, water, OB or otherwise.  Gotta play smart out there and think your way through a hole and around the course.

dave

ps:  I don't hit 'em 300 and most guys here don't either!

[mmoan2]

Maybe you should just play Par 3 courses

Seriously, golf is an awfully frustrating game. There's no solution except to keep working at it and it will come to you. I quit it for about 10 years because I was too frustrated with my inconsistency. I would wager that your entrenched bad habits creep up on the course. Most people who work hard enough at the game can do well on the driving range by masking their bad habits with repetition that works in spurts but not for the long haul. Throw in hitting from rough, around trees, over sand traps, off non-flat surfaces, and it gets ugly real fast. Sometimes at the range if I just want to hit balls and not work on my swing I'll hit out of divots with alternating clubs for humility. An 8-iron out of a deep divot, then a 4-iron, then a PW. I'll "mock play" a round, not hitting the same club twice in a row, trying to hit fades or draws as if it was a dog leg, etc.

I would recommend signing up for evolvr and get real friendly with your favorite high-speed camera if you want to improve. A year from now you'll be flirting with par on that Par 3 course. Good luck.

 

[sirhacksalot]

Thanks for the quick responses.  I wanted to mention that i also do take lessons.  That's the only way i have been able to get down from the 150's to 90 in a year. Starting golf later in life 32 I have no dreams of tour play, but i am abosolutely obsessed with getting better. But my curse stands true with that too.  In lessons we pick targets even with the longer clubs and i can be within 10 - 15 (<5 with shorter irons) yards left or right but pretty consistent.  I am to the point of picking targets and calling shots during lessons. Never 3 putting on the practice greens, etc. With Irons can draw or fade.  Woods driver a little less consistent with the actual shot calling but tend to be what would be considered playable or in the fairway short rough of most holes. It sucks telling my coach what i am scoring and he says that i am at the same level as his students shooting in the 70's as far as lessons are concerned.  

Possible advice you - Develop a couple of 'go-to' shots that always work for you.  Here's an example:  When I'm not driving the ball well, I aim at the left edge of the fairway, open the driver face and swing at about 75% power.  This produces a nice high fade that finds the fairway at around 200 yards.  It works.

This is a big point of my post "what are you doing to get off the tee?".  I am going to try the find a "go to" shot, and will definately try this one.  A controllable predictable carry would be great.

[mvmac]

I have gotten my HI to an 18.4.  I played a par three course while away on training and shot 11 over on sanded / aerated greens.

I do well on the driving range but anytime i am on the course and  start trying to hit far to set up a good approach my game is lost.  I know every guy on here can hit 300+, on the range I know that I can get a few rollers out that far but probably average 255-260. But it is ridiculous that off a tee my good shots either spray to the nearest hazard or travel the length of a solid 5/6 iron for me.  Going to shorter clubs marginally helps but the problem usually doesn't change.  I once dropped and hit my 3 wood off the deck out of the rough next to the tee box and it went 215-225 straight.  Climbed the tee box used same 3 wood, same brand ball. One- in the woods, 3rd- in the water, 5th- 110 yard warm burner.

I've tried music, clearing my mind, clouding my mind. No practice swings / 10 practice swings. Using a new driver, using an old driver.  3 wood, 3 iron, 4 iron etc

Well it's probably more something to do with your swing than mental or something in your routine. You need to figure out the cause of your swing issues and fix that. Feel free to start a Member Swing thread and check out this thread.

How to Hit a Driver (Hit it Further and Stop Slicing!)

[Shindig]

On long par 4s and par 5s, the obvious second shot is a fairway wood.  For me, flushing a 5-wood (first choice) or a 3-wood is about a 20% success rate.  I read an article in Golf Digest that said for higher handicappers (you AND me!) a better play is a go-to fairway club that splits that 240 yard shot into two equal shots.  This would leave you with a pair of 7- or 8-irons.  Both of those clubs in MY bag are much higher percentage for success than flushing the fairway wood that's not going to get there anyhow, any day of the week.

Plenty of times on par 5s I've hit 5 hybrid or even a 7-iron to get myself into a range where I can throw a wedge or really short iron onto the green and hope to get close.  Hitting a wedge or 9-iron for my 3rd shot on a par 5 is much preferable than rolling a 5-wood, or hitting it into the trees, water, OB or otherwise.  Gotta play smart out there and think your way through a hole and around the course.

dave

ps:  I don't hit 'em 300 and most guys here don't either!

While I agree with the go-to shot off the tee, that's also a sign you should spend some more time practicing with your driver -- it's a very valuable club to hit well.   But having a go-to shot as a band aid isn't a bad thing for during a round.

 

The "two 7-irons to finish a par-5" though is something I have to stand adamantly against.  For your first two shots, hit the longest club you can hit that won't get you into trouble.  If your fairway wood shots are awful, practice that at the range.  But during a round, even if you haven't, consider hitting a utility metal or 5-iron.  You probably don't hit those significantly worse than a 7-iron, and you'll leave yourself a shorter approach, which narrows your mistakes.  

If you aren't hitting your fairway woods -- or even hybrid -- well, you probably don't have a high probability of pulling off two consecutive mid-iron shots.  

And if you're already a 16, I think you're good enough to move up to the 5-iron as your second par-5 shot, and before too long, you'll be comfortable with your woods.  

 

And then your par-5s become scoring opportunities -- pars and occasional bogeys (and sometimes a birdie) for typical scores are great for teen handicaps.

[Lihu]

I have gotten my HI to an 18.4.  I played a par three course while away on training and shot 11 over on sanded / aerated greens.

I do well on the driving range but anytime i am on the course and  start trying to hit far to set up a good approach my game is lost.  I know every guy on here can hit 300+, on the range I know that I can get a few rollers out that far but probably average 255-260. But it is ridiculous that off a tee my good shots either spray to the nearest hazard or travel the length of a solid 5/6 iron for me.  Going to shorter clubs marginally helps but the problem usually doesn't change.  I once dropped and hit my 3 wood off the deck out of the rough next to the tee box and it went 215-225 straight.  Climbed the tee box used same 3 wood, same brand ball. One- in the woods, 3rd- in the water, 5th- 110 yard warm burner.

I've tried music, clearing my mind, clouding my mind. No practice swings / 10 practice swings. Using a new driver, using an old driver.  3 wood, 3 iron, 4 iron etc

 

Once you develop a more solid swing, then the swing itself gives you confidence. It sounds a little bit like you are swinging for the fences, which gives you an occasional 255-260 shot. Also, I'm not going to say "slow down" because that's actually not quite right either. What I recommend is to start with the fundamentals using the 5 keys 5SK. Start with the first one and all the associated drills until you get it. Then move on to the next one. . .

The 5 keys system seems to work pretty well. I just talked to my original golf coach prior to joining this site, after playing a round, and he was impressed with all the progress I have made. 3 years ago, I was also shooting in the high 90s and now a "bad day" is over 85. I put it in quotes because I don't really have any "bad days". The main thing is the keys system is a somewhat measurable means to show your progress like the belt system in martial arts. Gives you a really good sense of where are your current skills.

Read through a bunch of the 5SK threads to get some idea of what it does.

[Golfingdad]

I have gotten my HI to an 18.4.  I played a par three course while away on training and shot 11 over on sanded / aerated greens.

 

This is not surprising.  All it does is highlight the fact that the farther from the hole you are, the more important the shot.  I do the exact same thing.  I average anywhere from 5 to 12 over par playing a standard 18 hole par 71 or 72 course, but put me on a par 3 course and I'm a "scratch" golfer.  Putting is easy.  Pitching and chipping is only slightly harder than putting.  Wedges are easier than mid irons, which are easier than long irons and those are easier than woods and the driver is the most difficult of all.  Those are the facts.

Consider how much better you would score relative to par if you got to walk your ball to the middle of the fairway 250 yards from the tee on every par 4 and 400 or so yards from the tee on every par 5.  And if you want, you can even put it on a tee.  That is basically the same thing as playing a par 3 course.  You've eliminated the hardest part of the game so its going to be quite a bit easier for most everybody.

[stealthhwk]

I struggle with this constantly as well but I can only hit it 215 off the tee on my best day. Which is just dumb cus my 7 iron distance is about 165  on average. But heres some things Ive learned that might help. 

1: Make sure your playing the correct tees. 

2: dont try to hit it far on the course. Your attitude should be hit it solid and at the target. Keep it in play and relax. Unless its a par 3, no one expects you to drive the green on your first shot.

3. If that doesnt help me then as another poster suggested, Ill take a hybrid or a 5 iron and just hit it to a safe spot in the fairway that will make the next shot easy as possible.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[vangator]

I pick a target down the fairway to aim at.  I make sure the face is square to my target.  My arms are loose.  I do a waggle to make sure when my hands and arms flex, the face is still square to the target.  I straighten my left arm.  At the top of my backswing, I just slightly pause before making my downswing.  It keeps my body from spinning out.  I come down firm but not over swinging.  Right before the club head hits the ball, I give it a little ass to get that extra distance.  Not newbies swing too hard from the top of their backswing.

I think the key to driving is focus pretty strongly on a point on the ball.  You will naturally keep your tempo.  Follow through by extending your arms down the line.  Keep working on getting the ball started on your target line.

If you're serious about hitting your driver, the next few times at the range, hit nothing but driver until it feels natural and keeps in play.  Take a few extra second between each ball.  Don't just pound ball after ball.

[WUTiger]

The biggest difference I see between a practice range and on the course is mindset.  When I am on the practice range, I am not trying to hit or control the ball, I am swinging the club.  As soon as I move to the course I tend to try to 'hit' the ball instead of swing. ...

On Par 5 holes, I used to just "hit hard" without realistically visualizing where I could place the ball (seeking the mythical ""big hit"). Now, I visualize where the ball could likely go with decent swing results. Lack of focus on Par 5 drives leads to exciting results.

On Par 4 holes, the trick is to realize where you are after your drive. If I'm 170 yards out from green in the light rough, on a tight hole,  I may hit a 7i to up in front of the green rather than risk OB or a deep bunker on the approach.

Basically, plan where you can realistically put your drive, focus on that spot, and take it from there. If you can't commit to a brave approach shot, take an easier one that's more likely to set up a short up-and-down try.  

[Mike Boatright]

You gotta realize that old adage take it to the course is pretty stupid right.. The driving range is usually a flat open field to hit balls in you get grooved and are always aimed at the same target give or take so of course it's easier. The golf course is no different except it has a much smaller target and usually has trees and blind shots to deal with. Work on alignment and hit the ball with force. Everyone on here does not hit it 300+ I hit it 285 with a swing speed of 109 but who cares 250 is good. If you have ever played frisbee golf for fun with some beers then you need to take that mindset to the golf course maybe minus the beers. It's a game that's it the driving range is a practice area no different than the golf course right? I have never had that problem I think most people don't understand the number ratio of the actual good shots on the range take 100 balls maybe 20 of em are awesome the rest so so or unplayable. Think about the odds now you go to the tee your % of hitting an awesome drive is one in 15 as you get better it becomes 1/10 and so on.  pga tour guys are a coin flip or slightly better for me I'm at one out of 3 or 4 shots will be awesome with tee shots. So lower your expectations and understand the reality of your skill level enjoy mistakes and take a mulligan.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Mike Boatright

[sirhacksalot]

This is not surprising.  All it does is highlight the fact that the farther from the hole you are, the more important the shot.  I do the exact same thing.  I average anywhere from 5 to 12 over par playing a standard 18 hole par 71 or 72 course, but put me on a par 3 course and I'm a "scratch" golfer.

I wasn't looking at it this way.  But that is a very good point. 

I recently read on another topic the idea of driving a tee all the way down 4 inches or so behind where you tee the ball.  And imagining there is a ball there to have a "target" for the low part of the driver swing. I tried this last night just hitting into the net and using foot spray.  And the results were very good.  Strikes were higher middle instad of low heely or worse which has been the consistent norm. I am going to take to the range and try.  I have way too many bad shots from hitting down and sky marking the driver or hitting too up and catching a teed ball thin.

Edited October 7, 2015 by sirhacksalot

[vangator]

I typically find par 3's are the holes I average the most above par.  A 200 yard par 3 requires a 200 yard shot for GIR.  Most 4's and 5's don't have anywhere near that.  The advantage of teeing the ball up helps, but on the whole, long par 3's are tougher for me.

[Golfingdad]

I recently read on another topic the idea of driving a tee all the way down 4 inches or so behind where you tee the ball.  And imagining there is a ball there to have a "target" for the low part of the driver swing. I tried this last night just hitting into the net and using foot spray.  And the results were very good.  Strikes were higher middle instad of low heely or worse which has been the consistent norm. I am going to take to the range and try.  I have way too many bad shots from hitting down and sky marking the driver or hitting too up and catching a teed ball thin.

I'm no instructor ... but I really don't like the sound of that.  I get the idea, but it sounds like it's going about it all wrong.  Instead of moving your low point back, keep the same swing and move the ball forward.  If inside left heel isn't working, then go left toe, or even outside of left foot if need be.  Trying to move the driver low point back seems to me like it would lead to other, much worse, faults.  Like flipping drastically to avoid sticking it in the ground, or falling back on your right side and losing power, and other no-nos like that.

But just to repeat ;) ... not an instructor so take it for what its worth.

[sirhacksalot]

I'll be careful it about it.  I have hit some very  good drives teeing where i do.  A lil off left heel. outside of left knee. (I play an older taylor made 300 tipped and cut to 43 3/4.)  The problem that i have is that when i hit any other club i visualize where i want to start hitting the ground in reference to the ball.  short irons and wedges in front of the ball (unless a chip), mid to long irons are just in front of middle of the ball, fairway woods is the back middle of the ball,  Driver or an upward swing (teed 3 wood, or any other club for that matter) has always alluded me.  I place driver / etc behind teed ball and have to start thinking of how to hit the ball and not just where i want to for lack of better words start touching the ground or taking a divot.  

I have tried moving the teed ball around and the inconsistency was still there. What i referenced before i think just keeps me in the frame of mind of swinging the same with every club.  Driver / woods just a little taller / farther  so that there isnt a divot.  and having the bottom of my swing to be in the same place everytime.

Having not played golf my whole life i depend on the information and experience from others coaches / peers to get where i want to be.  So any feedback is greatly appreciated. 

[saevel25]

I'm no instructor ... but I really don't like the sound of that.  I get the idea, but it sounds like it's going about it all wrong.  Instead of moving your low point back, keep the same swing and move the ball forward.  If inside left heel isn't working, then go left toe, or even outside of left foot if need be.  

I think the issue is when you move the ball forward for the driver you have to think about swinging normal. I think some people will end up lunging towards the ball and defeat the purpose of moving it forward. It's like with irons you get people to move the ball forward and their impact improves because they start to get that left hand more inline with the shoulder and clubhead at impact. 

I remember playing golf with Erik a few times and he's dropped kicked a few drivers before. So, it's not the worst thing in the world to imagine the low point just behind the ball. If it works for them then cool. I think people should try to just modify the set up first and see if that helps hitting up on the ball.