World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[Rkrider99]

We were notified today that our GHIN system will be down from Jan 1 to Jan 5 for the update. Please hold all scorecards played during that time to be entered after the system comes back up.

[Double Mocha Man]

With a pencil and a good eraser those scores can get lower every day, over those 5 days.

[RemyM]

The biggest issue for places going live in January is the new stroke allocation for determining what holes you get your strokes for your net double bogey, and the second one is if they will change the par on any holes on a course to meet the new guidelines.  Par didn't matter in the old calculation but it will now.  There are many course with par 5's that are a bit short that may now need to be par 4's.  My active season doesn't resume until April but when I asked in my seminar when we would get that I was told March.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, RemyM said:

The biggest issue for places going live in January is the new stroke allocation for determining what holes you get your strokes for your net double bogey, and the second one is if they will change the par on any holes on a course to meet the new guidelines.  Par didn't matter in the old calculation but it will now.  There are many course with par 5's that are a bit short that may now need to be par 4's.  My active season doesn't resume until April but when I asked in my seminar when we would get that I was told March.

Courses are still free to call those holes "par fives" on their scorecards and everything, but yeah, for scoring purposes, there's going to be two things: "real par" and "handicap par." (These aren't the words, and I'm too lazy to look them up right now.)

[boogielicious]

So what is the likelihood my 13.0 stays there come January? Should I bet the over?

[RemyM]

33 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

So what is the likelihood my 13.0 stays there come January? Should I bet the over?

On our last few e-revisions there has been a link that tells you what your index will be under the new calculation.  On the first two mine was going down 0.1 and up 0.1 on the last ones.  Unless you have some big variation in your 9th and 10th best scores from your best 8 average it shouldn't be a significant change.  Some people with an inconsistent scoring pattern will definitely see a change.

[RemyM]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Courses are still free to call those holes "par fives" on their scorecards and everything, but yeah, for scoring purposes, there's going to be two things: "real par" and "handicap par." (These aren't the words, and I'm too lazy to look them up right now.)

Why would you want the scorecard to show it as a par 5, if the scoring record is calling it a par 4?  They used one of my courses as an example when talking about this.  It's a par 5 on the course's scorecard and is 440 from the back tee, too short to be a 5 under the new guidelines, and when the MGA has events there they'll play it up a bit and call it a par 4 on their card.  It's uphill and has a couple of bunkers that encroach the landing area off the tee. The last 90 yards are straight uphill and covered in rough.  They said in that case if it was the architects intent that it be played as a par 5 in normal play it could stay a par 5 under the new handicap system.

Edited December 7, 2019 by RemyM

[Missouri Swede]

50 minutes ago, RemyM said:

It's a par 5 on the course's scorecard and is 440 from the back tee, too short to be a 5 under the new guidelines,

I had missed this part. What are the new yardages? 

[RemyM]

20 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

I had missed this part. What are the new yardages? 

It is recommended that par be established for each hole in accordance with the following hole lengths: 

Par 3: Men Up to 260 yards (240 metres); Women Up to 220 yards (200 metres)

Par 4: Men 240 to 490 yards (220 to 450 metres); Women 200 to 420 yards (180 to 380 metres)

Par 5: Men 450 to 710 yards (410 to 650 metres); Women 370 to 600 yards (340 to 550 metres)

Par 6: Men 670 yards and up (610 metres and up); Women 570 yards and up (520 metres and up)

Source: Appendix F: Rules of Handicapping

[mauricio]

25 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

I had missed this part. What are the new yardages? 

I missed something too, about that on defining if it's a par 4 or 5, the par will be the same for all players. That's why I believe it doesn't matter at all. 

[Missouri Swede]

18 minutes ago, mauricio said:

I missed something too, about that on defining if it's a par 4 or 5, the par will be the same for all players. That's why I believe it doesn't matter at all. 

It matters for establishing net double bogey for a player for that hole. If I understand correctly, if it’s a par 4 and I get one stroke on that hole, then my max reportable score (for handicap) for that hole is 7; if it’s a par 5, then it’s 8. 
 

18 minutes ago, RemyM said:

It is recommended that par be established for each hole in accordance with the following hole lengths: 

Par 3: Men Up to 260 yards (240 metres); Women Up to 220 yards (200 metres)

Par 4: Men 240 to 490 yards (220 to 450 metres); Women 200 to 420 yards (180 to 380 metres)

Par 5: Men 450 to 710 yards (410 to 650 metres); Women 370 to 600 yards (340 to 550 metres)

Par 6: Men 670 yards and up (610 metres and up); Women 570 yards and up (520 metres and up)

Source: Appendix F: Rules of Handicapping

Thanks. So the pars overlap in the new recommendations. They don’t in the current (outgoing) listing:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14401
 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Missouri Swede

[RemyM]

37 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

It matters for establishing net double bogey for a player for that hole. If I understand correctly, if it’s a par 4 and I get one stroke on that hole, then my max reportable score (for handicap) for that hole is 7; if it’s a par 5, then it’s 8. 
 

Thanks. So the pars overlap in the new recommendations. They don’t in the current (outgoing) listing:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14401
 

Correct.  The differences allow some determination based on effective playing length and obstacles. 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, RemyM said:

Why would you want the scorecard to show it as a par 5, if the scoring record is calling it a par 4?

Because some courses have holes with tees at 550, 510, and then across the pond the tees are 410. The women and juniors often play the forward tees, but there are senior men who play the "white" tees two up from the back tees, so the scorecard just says "Par 5" for all even though 410 from the "whites" isn't really a par five.

That's why it's gonna happen. And I know of a few courses in WPGA that this will happen at, too.

So, like I said, for that tee box on that hole, it'll be a "real par 4" for the hole-by-hole "net double bogey" (formerly ESC) thing, and yet it'll say "par 5" on the scorecard.

 

[RemyM]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because some courses have holes with tees at 550, 510, and then across the pond the tees are 410. The women and juniors often play the forward tees, but there are senior men who play the "white" tees two up from the back tees, so the scorecard just says "Par 5" for all even though 410 from the "whites" isn't really a par five.

That's why it's gonna happen. And I know of a few courses in WPGA that this will happen at, too.

So, like I said, for that tee box on that hole, it'll be a "real par 4" for the hole-by-hole "net double bogey" (formerly ESC) thing, and yet it'll say "par 5" on the scorecard.

 

That's covered in the new Rules of Handicapping.  It specifically lists a situations like that and say it's fine that it is still a par 5.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, RemyM said:

That's covered in the new Rules of Handicapping.  It specifically lists a situations like that and say it's fine that it is still a par 5.

Dude, I know.

I'm answering your question.

[David in FL]

I’m not understanding.
 

Certainly you’re not saying that if a course has a par five that is under 450 yards from the senior tees, that the seniors playing those tees will have to consider that to be a par-4 for the net bogey calculation?  

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I’m not understanding.

Certainly you’re not saying that if a course has a par five that is under 450 yards from the senior tees, that the seniors playing those tees will have to consider that to be a par-4 for the net bogey calculation?  

Yes.

 And it’s net double.

If the course rating determines its a par four, they can put whatever they want on the card but it’s a four for the net double stuff (the new ESC).

[David in FL]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes.

 And it’s net double.

If the course rating determines its a par four, they can put whatever they want on the card but it’s a four for the net double stuff (the new ESC).

Misspoke, net double of course.

It’ll never work.  No one....and I mean NO ONE, will ever check the database on the off chance that the scorecard is somehow different...