World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

Up until recently the information required for handicap assessment would rarely be available at my course. We are just now getting it passed to roll the greens a few times a week and post the stimp daily, which I am really excited about.

Huh?

[Valleygolfer]

Just now, iacas said:

Huh?

Talking about basing course conditions for handicap assessment, no? My course has had very information online until this year. If they are going to use conditions for assessment, unless it's up to the individual to report conditions?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

Talking about basing course conditions for handicap assessment, no?

No. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Stimp doesn't matter. It matters when the course raters create the course rating (and slope), but they can also measure it themselves.

You don't need to know the daily stimp to create a handicap index.

[Valleygolfer]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Stimp doesn't matter. It matters when the course raters create the course rating (and slope), but they can also measure it themselves.

You don't need to know the daily stimp to create a handicap index.

I was not sure what info they were using but you guys are talking about weather conditions that would be taken into consideration. Stimp is just an example of information that is available soon at my course and could affect scoring. Basically saying my course was behind the 8 ball when it comes to reporting any "extra" information.

If weather is going to be considered, and stimp directly affects a course rating as you stated, where is the cut off for information used?

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

I was not sure what info they were using but you guys are talking about weather conditions that would be taken into consideration. Stimp is just an example of information that is available soon at my course and could affect scoring. Basically saying my course was behind the 8 ball when it comes to reporting any "extra" information.

If weather is going to be considered, and stimp directly affects a course rating as you stated, where is the cut off for information used?

No, none of that information will be used.

The only information used is the scores shot that day. Right now the plan is to slightly adjust the course rating and slope if a statistically significant number of players shoot significantly higher or lower than they "should." That alone would indicate that the course played easier (maybe the tees were all moved up a spot) or tougher (bad weather, tougher hole locations, etc.) that day.

And remember this is something that may take place in 2020. The course you play regularly should have a rating and slope now, and they don't need to publish daily stimp speeds.

[Valleygolfer]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, none of that information will be used.

The only information used is the scores shot that day. Right now the plan is to slightly adjust the course rating and slope if a statistically significant number of players shoot significantly higher or lower than they "should." That alone would indicate that the course played easier (maybe the tees were all moved up a spot) or tougher (bad weather, tougher hole locations, etc.) that day.

And remember this is something that may take place in 2020. The course you play regularly should have a rating and slope now, and they don't need to publish daily stimp speeds.

That makes sense. Seemed like the use of other factors would get a little tedious to keep track of.

[Shindig]

5 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

That makes sense. Seemed like the use of other factors would get a little tedious to keep track of.

Plus they're largely causes of the scores shot that day, one way or the other.  Or, if they didn't affect the scores, they shouldn't go into the handicap calculation.  The way Erik describes solves the issue of having to figure out which this is.

[mauricio]

On 11/23/2015 at 7:47 PM, iacas said:

To this point, the world has had a few different handicapping systems. Among the major ones, we had the USGA handicapping systems, with course ratings, slope, the 0.96 multiplier, best 10-of-20 system, etc. We had the CONGU system, which had the SSS (standard scratch score). Australia, AFAIK, was closer to CONGU but has spent the past several years quasi-converting to the USGA type standard.

Well, scheduled for 2018, the world will see a unified handicapping system. The system is a blend of the two main handicapping systems, in that:

• Courses will have a scratch and bogey rating (i.e. course rating and slope).
• Courses will also track scores daily and adjust the scratch rating similar to how the SSS is done.

For the latter, I think the slope remains the same, so even if no scratch players play on the given day, they'll be able to determine the "daily rating" for the course. This means that on days when the pins are tucked (say, a tournament) and the greens are super fast, everyone's higher-than-usual scores may not raise their handicaps as much as they have in the past. It also means that on days when the wind is howling, an 80 might get the same "differential" as a 76 on calm, warm days.

I don't know too many of the details, just the broad strokes (no pun intended). The system seems to favor the USGA's current system, but I don't know if the 0.96 multiplier survives, if the 10-out-of-20 survives, etc.

I am excited about the change, as I think it's been unusual to have two different systems (or more) in play for a number of years now. As a course rater I think the USGA's rating/slope system has a good amount of merit. It's not perfect of course for everyone, because not everyone plays the game exactly the same way, but it does a great job IMO of pretty fairly rating courses that are potentially fairly different.

I'm starting this thread today so that we can point links, share ideas, thoughts, express opinions, etc. as more information about this change begins to come to light and eventually take hold.

Great step, everything that comes to unite the game all around the World is welcome. As a rater for the USGA Slope Rating here in Brazil, we know that every change has some challenges, but it has to start somehow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

[ghalfaire]

On 12/12/2017 at 10:14 AM, mauricio said:

Great step, everything that comes to unite the game all around the World is welcome. As a rater for the USGA Slope Rating here in Brazil, we know that every change has some challenges, but it has to start somehow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

I like this idea as I play a lot of golf at a course where wind, green speed, and pin placement can wreak havoc with your game and/or cause your best score ever.  Such a system that uses the daily scores to account for changing course conditions would be of benefit to me.  But to implement this system I see a lot of data manipulation that now isn't part of the process of determining handicaps.  Read that to mean significant computing horsepower will have to be developed/procured along with new software and none of  that comes free.  So while I like it I won't hold my breath.  But as someone once said, "if you're going to eat and elephant, you have to start with the first bite".  So I am supportive but sceptical about the implementation dates. 

[DaveP043]

21 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I like this idea as I play a lot of golf at a course where wind, green speed, and pin placement can wreak havoc with your game and/or cause your best score ever.  Such a system that uses the daily scores to account for changing course conditions would be of benefit to me.  But to implement this system I see a lot of data manipulation that now isn't part of the process of determining handicaps.  Read that to mean significant computing horsepower will have to be developed/procured along with new software and none of  that comes free.  So while I like it I won't hold my breath.  But as someone once said, "if you're going to eat and elephant, you have to start with the first bite".  So I am supportive but sceptical about the implementation dates. 

They already do this type of  daily calculation in the UK and other areas under the CONGU system.  There's a generic SSS (Standard Scratch Score) for each course, but on competition days (which form the bulk of handicap rounds) they calculate a Competition Scratch Score (CSS) which is used in the actual handicap calculation.  I don't think that the worldwide system will have much difficulty in developing the computational systems to support their final decisions.

[Dinoma]

That's exactly right. The SSS is the score a scratch golfer would score on that course on an average day, the CSS is the score that the same golfer would get on that specific day on the same course.

At my course it rarely varies by more than 2 shots even when the weather really kicks up. Effectively All you are doing is moving the centre of the bell curve of the days play back over the average and how far you have to move it is the differential.

I think the whole conditions etc thing is confusing people - the conditions are assumed from the scores not the other way round. 

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Dinoma said:

I think the whole conditions etc thing is confusing people - the conditions are assumed from the scores not the other way round. 

This is what I meant, without saying it so clearly.  The CSS is calculated from the scores actually made each competition day, not estimated in advance based on someone's perception of scoring conditions.

[xrayvizhen]

I never really understood the reason for the .96 multiplier for the average of lowest 10 of the most recent 20. I always thought it would be better to have the multiplier for each round and adjust that taking into consideration daily conditions such as pin placement or weather.

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, xrayvizhen said:

I never really understood the reason for the .96 multiplier for the average of lowest 10 of the most recent 20. I always thought it would be better to have the multiplier for each round and adjust that taking into consideration daily conditions such as pin placement or weather.

The multiplier is the "bonus for excellence." It's explained pretty well in the documentation.

If they do the daily adjustment, it will just be based on the scores shot that day. If everyone shot significantly higher, the course rating and/or slope will be adjusted upward slightly.

[ghalfaire]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This is what I meant, without saying it so clearly.  The CSS is calculated from the scores actually made each competition day, not estimated in advance based on someone's perception of scoring conditions.

I admit to ignorance of the CONGU system as I seldom play outside of the US.  I was under the impression however that only scores from tournaments were submitted for handicap purposes.  That would be much fewer scores than the typical USGA handicap golfer would submit I suspect.  But as I said in the post I like the idea of using the daily scores to determine the "daily slope".  Especially on courses like my club where I suspect the impact might be 3-4 strokes depending on conditions.

Edited December 15, 2017 by ghalfaire
mis spell

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, ghalfaire said:

I admit to ignorance of the CONGU system as I seldom play outside of the US.  I was under the impression however that only scores from tournaments were submitted for handicap purposes.  That would be much fewer scores than the typical USGA handicap golfer would submit I suspect.  But as I said in the post I like the idea of using the daily scores to determine the "daily slope".  Especially on coursed like my club where I suspect the impact might be 3-4 strokes depending on conditions.

It will be interesting to see what will happen concerning which scores to post.  Those of us in the US could see a reduction, with fewer "casual" rounds being postable, ad we move towards a compromise with the other systems.  I don't know for sure, and I haven't heard any rumors, but it seems a reasonable possibility, and a continuation of the trend started when "solo rounds" became not-postable.  

[iacas]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

It will be interesting to see what will happen concerning which scores to post.  Those of us in the US could see a reduction, with fewer "casual" rounds being postable, ad we move towards a compromise with the other systems.  I don't know for sure, and I haven't heard any rumors, but it seems a reasonable possibility, and a continuation of the trend started when "solo rounds" became not-postable.  

From what I've heard that's the only concession toward moving in that direction.

[Dinoma]

You are quite right that 'automatically' it is just competition scores (using CSS) that will be entered for handicap purposes, however you are able to nominate supplementary scores (using SSS)  to apply against your handicap (as long as you alert the pro before the round that your card will be so, and the card is verified by a member of the club you are playing at). As with most things golf related there are various caveats and complications but that is the gist!

I would presume that the move would be for CONGU to be more inclusive of rounds rather than the other way round, since for most players - especially casual ones, the complaint is how difficult it is to enter enough (if any) competitions.