Are 'The Voice' and "American Idol' destroying good singing?

[Dave325]

Where is the next generation of great musicians and singers? The next Hendrix, Joplin, Led Zeppelin or the Beatles? 

Wow, I thought I was the only one I know that was anti-reality talent shows. I still listen to music from the past 60s and 70s  .... When artist paid their dues to get where they were. I agree. Many of these artists wouldn't be considered today (but neither would Lincoln be considered for president either, if that tells you something about today's perspective).

I enjoyed a fun career in music back in my 20s ranging from rock, blues, jazz and classical (earned my masters in music before moving to computer networking that was growing at the time). At that time. My goal was to be s studio musician... And we all know what technology has done to the traditional studio. 

Many of today's artist can create a good sound and hit the right notes. But what I see missing is the feeling, expression and passion that was evident in artists like Dylan. Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin and the like. All who probably wouldn't have made the cut. Don't get me wrong  j appreciate great talent in all forms... And Keith Urban is an excellent musician.

I read a few comments from Dave Grohl of Nirvana and the Foo Fighters .... Excuse the words, which are a bit rough (his and not mine)

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/dave-grohl-rants-its-destroying-the-next-generation-of-musicians/article11746664/?service=mobile

 

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, Dave325 said:

Where is the next generation of great musicians and singers? The next Hendrix, Joplin, Led Zeppelin or the Beatles? 

Wow, I thought I was the only one I know that was anti-reality talent shows. I still listen to music from the past 60s and 70s  .... When artist paid their dues to get where they were. I agree. Many of these artists wouldn't be considered today (but neither would Lincoln be considered for president either, if that tells you something about today's perspective).

I enjoyed a fun career in music back in my 20s ranging from rock, blues, jazz and classical (earned my masters in music before moving to computer networking that was growing at the time). At that time. My goal was to be s studio musician... And we all know what technology has done to the traditional studio. 

Many of today's artist can create a good sound and hit the right notes. But what I see missing is the feeling, expression and passion that was evident in artists like Dylan. Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin and the like. All who probably wouldn't have made the cut. Don't get me wrong  j appreciate great talent in all forms... And Keith Urban is an excellent musician.

I read a few comments from Dave Grohl of Nirvana and the Foo Fighters .... Excuse the words, which are a bit rough (his and not mine)

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/dave-grohl-rants-its-destroying-the-next-generation-of-musicians/article11746664/?service=mobile

 

As you know, the music business is a very tough business. Nirvana sold a bunch of records on their own before attracting the industry. The stress of that didn't help. Remember this Hunter S. Thompson quote:

“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”

 

[Dave325]

10 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

As you know, the music business is a very tough business. Nirvana sold a bunch of records on their own before attracting the industry. The stress of that didn't help. Remember this Hunter S. Thompson quote:

“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”

 

So true, boogie. I completely agree. I saw that in a small way from my perspective and have no regrets about walking away when I did. The sad part of the statement that you point out is.... All the true artists that care only about their craft (not money) and end up discouraged and/or abused by the industry. A very dark side to the music business.

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, Dave325 said:

So true, boogie. I completely agree. I saw that in a small way from my perspective and have no regrets about walking away when I did. The sad part of the statement that you point out is.... All the true artists that care only about their craft (not money) and end up discouraged and/or abused by the industry. A very dark side to the music business.

Or they do like my brother-in-law did - they play professionally in club bands (in the 1970's he played bass with Gary Morris in a C&W band called Breakaway), then decide that they want more from life and slide away for a while, get married, raise a family, save money.  He retired early from his real estate brokerage, now he lives in a small Colorado mountain town, plays in Denver clubs regularly with a top cover band that he organized, plus he plays all over the area around Winter Park/Grand Lake with various bands and has a blast.  He can do country, rock, folk, blues, even some jazz.  He is an outstanding musician, self taught, plays by ear.  

[Ernest Jones]

On December 18, 2015 at 6:27 AM, boogielicious said:

I remember practicing those. It became a math course after a while. But now, I just write and play what sounds right!  

The beauty of modal improvisation is there is no math to consider. G major and D major are geometrically the same on a guitar, for example. 

[boogielicious]

40 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

The beauty of modal improvisation is there is no math to consider. G major and D major are geometrically the same on a guitar, for example. 

I know, but as an engineer, it became mathematical for me. I tended to think too mechanically and less from the heart. 

[No Mulligans]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

The beauty of modal improvisation is there is no math to consider. G major and D major are geometrically the same on a guitar, for example. 

The downside of modal improvising and key center improvising is that many players (not all) just sound like they're noodling.  And, strip away the accompainment and you can't tell what song they're playing.  And, they tend to play the same stuff over different songs and different progressions.

Modal improvising often ends up being the same as key center improvising.  Take the ever so popular I vi IV V progression  ||:C / / / | Am / / / | F / / / | G7 / / / :||  Just play the C major scale, or just play the C major pentatonic.  While playing the C major scale as the chords change you'd be playing C ionian, A Aeolian, F lydian, G mixolydian.  That's a lot of thinking, too much for me.  So you just play a C major or C major penatonic.  The problem with all of this is it can just sound like noodling... Unless you address the chord tones (and extensions).

With all that said... you can get away with murder if you're rhythm is really good.

[Ernest Jones]

5 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

The downside of modal improvising or key center improvising is that many players (not all) just sound like they're noodling.  And, strip away the accompainment and you can't tell what song they're playing.  And, they tend to play the same stuff over different songs and different progressions.

Agreed. You still need artistry and sensitivity to the melody, but for many players, the discovery of modes can open a lot of doors.

For those who are interested in learning more about modes, this is a pretty good overview and explanation of how it works.

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/04/09/better-soloing-an-introduction-to-key-center-improvising/

[dak4n6]

Wow, this does sound like math. I'm self-taught and play by ear/feel. I can pick up most songs relatively easily after a few listens; getting down leads may take more effort. I mean, I know major, minor, and pentatonic patterns, and just use them to guide what I'm playing, but I also like to explore alternate notes and patterns and when improvising just try to play the ideas in my head.

Oh, I'm also a feel player in golf..

Edit: David Grohl is beast. I have a lot of respect for him..

Edited December 20, 2015 by dak4n6

[9wood]

What is ruining music today is modern culture and the trends of that culture.

[Ernest Jones]

12 hours ago, dak4n6 said:

Wow, this does sound like math. I'm self-taught and play by ear/feel. I can pick up most songs relatively easily after a few listens; getting down leads may take more effort. I mean, I know major, minor, and pentatonic patterns, and just use them to guide what I'm playing, but I also like to explore alternate notes and patterns and when improvising just try to play the ideas in my head.

Oh, I'm also a feel player in golf..

Edit: David Grohl is beast. I have a lot of respect for him..

I suspect the alternate notes you are experimenting with are the difference between playing a standard Major or Minor scale vs one of the other modes. Try this for me: the next time you are playing a tune that's in a major key, try playing the major scale of the 5th tone instead. This won't work for every song but once you get a sense for what mixolydian sounds like in comparison with the major scale you'll probably know immediately which scale is better suited to any particular song. Or just play a few bars in each and see which one sounds better with the least amount of manipulation/modification.

IE: if it's A major try playing it in E major (keeping A as the root note), or if it is in C major, solo in G major (keeping C as the root note).  That would be a mixolydian mode. 

When trying this, do what you always do, use your ear and sense of melody to guide you. Forget math, just play in the "off-key" and use your ears. When it works, and it won't always work depending on chord structure, you'll find that those alternate notes and added chromatics you like to add, are already there in the scale.  An added benefit is that the notes you were previously replacing with "alternate" or "blue" notes have already been removed from the scale, greatly reducing the chances of you hitting a sour squawker in mid flight. 

The key here (no pun intended) is to keep up your awareness of melody and chord sequence while soloing, because the danger, as @No Mulligans pointed out, is that once you're in the correct mode for any given chord sequence, "all the notes" work so it's easy to get lazy and just noodle instead of playing the actual song. But if you can find the correct mode AND stay with the chord changes you will be able to improvise like a Boss. 

Modes helps you play in a more linear fashion rather than jumping from box to box.  It's NOWHERE near as difficult as some seem to be implying, it's not at all "math-y" and is very intuitive once you understand the basic concept. 

"Think in G, blow in D," as one of the great horn improvisers once coined it. 

 

A great example of a modal improviser on guitar is John Scofeild. Dude is never playing in the key that you expect and he is one of the most expressive improvisers in the world.  

[JonMA1]

I had no idea some of you were so knowledgable about music.

I grew up learning open and bar chords for rhythm guitar, pentatonic major and minor scales for lead guitar, and arpeggios patterns for bass. Pretty basic stuff.

A couple years ago, I started writing and recording a few songs through the GarageBand app. Having never been an accomplished guitarist and having limited knowledge of music, it was simply a fun hobby that might get me through the winter. 

What I found was that it became really difficult to write "interesting" melodies using the pentatonic scales I knew. So I started putting in half notes where I thought they sounded good. Overall, I was pretty pleased with the couple of projects I completed.

But the projects got me really interested in learning other scales. I found that the melodies I used were actual scales I had never heard of (harmonic major and mixolydian, if memory serves). The notes had just sounded "right" with the chord progressions.

Anyway, as I read more about music theory, jazz improvisation scales, the circle of 5ths, etc., I really thought I'd figured a bunch of stuff out. At one point, I thought that whatever scale I used for the melody determined/limited which chords I could use in the song. In other words, a chord had to be made up only of notes from that scale.

In short, I tried to make it too much like math and it was just too restricting. I could never finish a song because it just lacked any creativity.

[colin007]

Once I learned my modes, it was very hard for me to break free from them. I think in shapes and patterns when I play lead, and because of that I feel stuck in modes instead of trusting my ears.

[dak4n6]

15 hours ago, colin007 said:

Once I learned my modes, it was very hard for me to break free from them. I think in shapes and patterns when I play lead, and because of that I feel stuck in modes instead of trusting my ears.

I also tend to think in terms of shapes and patterns when playing a straight out lead or a background lead. However, when I am playing well, I am listening almost more than playing. Gotta trust the ears and play from the heart. Just as in golf, I know my limitations, and thus try to play phrases. Exploring different patterns of just 3 notes can work out really well.

I think I actually do what EJ was talking about. I don't change scales with every chord change. I always play and explore trying to resolve back to the key of the tune. However, if I sense a change in key, then respond accordingly..

You know what? Playing music is indeed a lot like golf...

[Rainmaker]

I've played guitar for 35 years, saxophone as well.  Played in lots of bands through college and then for a few years after . .making barely enough money to live on but it was cool.  I have no idea what you guys are talking about, lol.  WAY over my head. 

What I do know is this . . American Idol and The Voice suck.  There are some talented people on the show but I really disagree with the approach - ie - that it's all about a singer and his or her producers.  The song doesn't matter.  The band doesn't really matter, either.  And the songs they pick!  I have heard Son of a Preacher Man 50 million times.  I don't need to hear an overproduced, over-sung crap version.  If I heard that in a bar, I'd walk right out.

I kind of get that they really represent what has always gone on in "pop" music . .but the popularity of the show is making people lose sight of what *actual* music is.  At least it seems that way to me.  When we got married, my wife had awesome taste in music.  I have to say, her taste has gone way down in the 7 or 8 years she's been an avid fan of reality tv talent shows. 

   

[dak4n6]

On 12/25/2015 at 1:58 PM, Rainmaker said:

I've played guitar for 35 years, saxophone as well.  Played in lots of bands through college and then for a few years after . .making barely enough money to live on but it was cool.  I have no idea what you guys are talking about, lol.  WAY over my head. 

What I do know is this . . American Idol and The Voice suck.  There are some talented people on the show but I really disagree with the approach - ie - that it's all about a singer and his or her producers.  The song doesn't matter.  The band doesn't really matter, either.  And the songs they pick!  I have heard Son of a Preacher Man 50 million times.  I don't need to hear an overproduced, over-sung crap version.  If I heard that in a bar, I'd walk right out.

I kind of get that they really represent what has always gone on in "pop" music . .but the popularity of the show is making people lose sight of what *actual* music is.  At least it seems that way to me.  When we got married, my wife had awesome taste in music.  I have to say, her taste has gone way down in the 7 or 8 years she's been an avid fan of reality tv talent shows. 

   

You made me realize the same thing. When I first met her, she introduced me to Live, and we went to their concerts and I got to know all their songs..great little high school rock band from Pennsylvania. She was also into Green Day, U2, Kenny Wayne Sheppard, Bonnie Rait.  Now she listens mainly to modern pop.

The only modern pop vocalist I feel any respect for is Adele. What a voice, incredible tone. One of those that you can easily recognize from the first note. And she does not throw her voice around. She does trills and scales, but with moderation so that it just highlights her diction and control.

[Ernest Jones]

On December 25, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Rainmaker said:

I've played guitar for 35 years, saxophone as well.  Played in lots of bands through college and then for a few years after . .making barely enough money to live on but it was cool.  I have no idea what you guys are talking about, lol.  WAY over my head.  

It is, by no means, a prerequisite to good improvisational playing. Just another tool for the toolbox. A really good tool, and many players use it without knowing/understanding it. Ultimately your ears should be the only "rules" you play by. 

[Rainmaker]

3 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

It is, by no means, a prerequisite to good improvisational playing. Just another tool for the toolbox. A really good tool, and many players use it without knowing/understanding it. Ultimately your ears should be the only "rules" you play by. 

True . . one of my favorite Sax players of all time, Bill Clinton, could barely read music.

 

Wait .. did I say Bill Clinton?  I meant Stan Getz, lol.