Power Sources in Golf

[RussUK]

15 hours ago, Lihu said:

I don't think this is an easy question to answer. The little lower body movement stuff just sounds wrong. Unless you have a disability, moving the lower body properly is essential to your swing.

Also, let's say your kinematic sequence is totally wrong, then moving the hips could even detract from the speed. Once your body is moving with proper sequencing, then all this stuff probably makes a difference. Until you get the first two keys reasonably (5SK), the rest of this stuff is pretty meaningless.

Not explained it well have i? Think i should have asked what incorrect lower body movement can do to the swing, under and overactive hips and knees etc. 

I see people at the range with either legs made of stone or jelly but their upper body looks good, decent rotation, plane etc. So if with just arms a golfer could get 70% of the power how dramatically would poor lower body action affect the poor/speed of the swing?

I feel lucky as i feel ive got body and arms working just about right now (at last!!!)

[Marty2019]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

So, @Marty2019, how about that? Thoughts?

It's an interesting subject and opinions vary. 

I haven't changed my mind about what I posted.  

I agree with what you said in this sentence: 

On 2/22/2016 at 9:50 AM, iacas said:

Very little power comes from the active use of your wrist muscles to snap the clubhead into the ball.

That's my essential point.   If I misinterpreted what was being said in the original video, then I retract my statement where I called it bullshit.  

As for the video of the person sitting down hitting a ball, of course a person can sit in a chair and hit a ball with just their hands and arms.   That doesn't prove that that's any part of a good golf swing.   My best results come when I relax my hands and arms and try not to use them for anything but connecting my body to the club.  

[saevel25]

21 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

As for the video of the person sitting down hitting a ball, of course a person can sit in a chair and hit a ball with just their hands and arms.   That doesn't prove that that's any part of a good golf swing.   

That's not the point of the video. The point of the video is that 70% of clubhead speed comes from the arms and hands. The other 30% comes from body rotation. 

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

That's not the point of the video. The point of the video is that 70% of clubhead speed comes from the arms and hands. The other 30% comes from body rotation. 

Look, I don't want to get into an argument, because when I do that, I (and others) tend to dig into our positions and close our minds.  

But I have to say, what that video shows is that there is an alternative swing where you can get a large proportion of clubhead speed by using your arm and wrist muscles.   It does not show that 70% of clubhead speed comes from arm and wrist muscles in a good golf swing.  It simply shows that you can get to 70% by using your arms and wrists.   He is simply using an alternative swing.  

My opinion is that if most people try to incorporate their arm and wrist muscles into their swing, they will only wind up holding themselves back, reducing their swing speed.   It certainly works that way in my case.   Tension is the enemy of club head speed.   A normal person needs to take the tension out of their swing.   The way to do that is to swing with the body and not with the arms and wrists. 

You may be right.   I just don't think so right now. 

Here's a video I like:

 

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

But I have to say, what that video shows is that there is an alternative swing where you can get a large proportion of clubhead speed by using your arm and wrist muscles.   It does not show that 70% of clubhead speed comes from arm and wrist muscles in a good golf swing.  It simply shows that you can get to 70% by using your arms and wrists.   He is simply using an alternative swing.  

Sure it does. It's called an experiment. What is the clubhead speed with out using any body rotation? It shows that around 70% comes from the hands and arms. 

No one is saying just use hands and arms. It does show that body rotation only adds about 30% to the golf swing. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

It's an interesting subject and opinions vary. 

I haven't changed my mind about what I posted.

Outside of "feels" which are often not at all representative of what's actually happening, you're not really covering "opinion" here. These are things that are tested, known, and very much fact or very very close to fact.

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

That's my essential point.   If I misinterpreted what was being said in the original video, then I retract my statement where I called it bullshit.

I don't think it's so much about misinterpreting it as, well, okay, maybe it is. But the video wasn't super clear on that point either.

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

As for the video of the person sitting down hitting a ball, of course a person can sit in a chair and hit a ball with just their hands and arms. That doesn't prove that that's any part of a good golf swing.

It goes to demonstrating how much power it is possible to derive from the arms (and wrists, whether passive or active) simply moving across your chest (lead arm) or flexing and extending (trail elbow).

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

My best results come when I relax my hands and arms and try not to use them for anything but connecting my body to the club.  

@Marty2019, here's the central thing that maybe we're missing each other on… when I'm teaching a student I don't care if the feeling is "make your arms turn into noodles barely holding onto the grip" (I use that line all the time when talking about pitching). The feel can be whatever it needs to be to produce the proper mechanics.

But unless your peak swing speed is in the 40s or 50s (MPH), you are using your arms quite a bit during the backswing and downswing. You're bending and straightening the trail elbow. You're hinging and turning both wrists and forearms. Yeah, the wrists are more passive on the downswing. You're - whether you realize it or not - moving your left arm across your chest and then back. Actively. Muscles are firing to do those things - your arms are not noodles. You're using your arms.

Just imagine if, at the top of your backswing, I replaced your arms and hands with string connected to your shoulders and holding onto the club. You couldn't possibly turn fast enough with passive arms to hit the ball very far at all.

I'm glad the feeling of "just rotate" works for you (though we don't truly know if that works or not - perhaps you need to feel other things and change the mechanics?), when discussing things here, we really can't discuss everyone's feelings, because they'll all be different. What we can only really discuss here is what's actually happening. Occasionally we have to be a bit more general about it, but many times we can talk about what's actually happening.

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

Look, I don't want to get into an argument, because when I do that, I (and others) tend to dig into our positions and close our minds.

Then don't.  I assure you I'm the first person to jump to a better understanding or idea… but it takes a lot to get me there, because this is my area of expertise, and unlike most golf instructors (heck, 95% of them), I study the science, talk to experts, use my own scientific background, etc. to really study this stuff. So, I have a bit of knowledge that people have to overcome.

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

But I have to say, what that video shows is that there is an alternative swing where you can get a large proportion of clubhead speed by using your arm and wrist muscles.   It does not show that 70% of clubhead speed comes from arm and wrist muscles in a good golf swing.  It simply shows that you can get to 70% by using your arms and wrists.   He is simply using an alternative swing.

I disagree - he is not using a "different" or an "alternative" swing. He's simply removing parts of his normal swing. He's removing his legs and hips. He's removing his shoulder/torso turn.

This video we filmed before we spent time hanging out with Ph.D.s in a biomechanics lab where they basically confirmed what we had postulated: if you break the golf swing down into these three parts, the power contributions are as follows:

• Arms: 60-70% (Dave is on the upper end of that scale, I'm on the lower end).
• Horizontal rotation (horizontal GRF or "shear forces"): 20-35%
• Vertical rotation (vertical "GRF"): 5-10%

That's not an "alternative" swing. He's is doing something he wouldn't normally do - he's "not" doing something he WOULD normally do, if you get what I'm saying.

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

My opinion is that if most people try to incorporate their arm and wrist muscles into their swing, they will only wind up holding themselves back, reducing their swing speed.

They will not. They have to use their arms properly, but @Marty2019, if they literally try not to use their arm muscles at all, they'll swing really, really slowly.

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

It certainly works that way in my case.

It really doesn't.

You may feel that it does, but it - in terms of what's actually happening - does not. Unless, again, your swing speed tops out at 48 MPH or so…

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

Tension is the enemy of club head speed. A normal person needs to take the tension out of their swing. The way to do that is to swing with the body and not with the arms and wrists.

Who's talking about tension?

Have you seen long drivers? Do you think they have "tension" in their golf swings? Do you think they're using their arms - the muscles in their arms and wrists - to hit the ball?

Absolutely they are.

17 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

That's a video talking about feels only. He said he was swinging "easy" but… what does that mean? And, Paul is still "using" his arms - quite a bit, actually. He's even bending his left elbow to create another lever.

Dustin Johnson could swing "easy" and probably outdrive both of us from his knees, with next to no rotation. He might even outdrive us one-handed… with either hand. Paul comparing himself to the older golfer is not even close to approaching scientific.

I agree that "tension" is bad, and trying to keep your wrist angles in is bad, but that's not what anyone here is talking about. Paul's video does nothing but teach speed.

In fact, here's some simple science which goes to this…

In that period of time, Paul's torso is accelerating. It's just about or has just reached peak speed and is about to decelerate, but in the frame on the right the torso is moving faster than it is on the left. We know this having measured the rotational speeds/kinematic sequences of golfers.

If the torso was accelerating, the angle between his left arm and chest would be narrowing. His arm would be "dragged" behind. Yet the angle is increasing! Why? Because Paul is actively pulling his left arm across his chest. His left arm angle increases relative to his torso. He's using the muscles in his right and left arms, the shoulders, etc. to move his arms - actively - on the downswing.

If his arms were simply "connecting" his body to the club and doing nothing else, they'd be left way, way behind. The entire time the torso accelerated, they'd get farther and farther behind. They'd only start to catch up when the pelvis slowed down, which happens way too close to impact for them to catch up and make anything close to a reasonable golf swing.

Paul is using the heck out of his arms in that video.

That video mostly talks about the wrists. I don't particularly agree with what he has to say about them, either, nor does his swing:

Spoiler

 

In fact, the position on the left is more like what you'll see when a golfer's rotation SLOWS too much. Their arms and ultimately the clubhead will "overtake" the rotation of the body prematurely. Note Paul's actual swing on the right has very little of this motion.

Neither player arrives at impact like these positions. They use their arms more and their body rotation less when hitting a golf ball.

Anyway… This is hidden in a spoiler as it's somewhat OT and only tangentially related to the topic.

 

Here's a related thread:

In that video, I demonstrate what happens when I stop using my arms to "pull my hands down" fast enough, long enough. The clubhead overtakes.

The still photos of the younger student are more relevant. On the left, he was using his arms to pull the handle down, but not quite enough. On the right, he felt that he was just pulling his arms down. He was not worrying about anything else in his golf swing. He felt that, from the top, he was simply trying to pull his hands down to my hand (to smack my hand) or accelerating the speedboat the entire way past impact. He was not using his body at all (his "feeling").

So there's an opposite feeling to yours, @Marty2019. That golfer feels that he is swinging just his arms from the top.

I gave that lesson to a student yesterday, too, in fact:

On the left, very little shaft lean, a body that's very open, and a ball that needs to be "picked" perfectly to be hit well.

On the right, more shaft lean, a ball that will be hit more solidly, and all because he "sped up his arms." He used his arms more. Maybe they were only adding 50%, now they're adding 60% or so?

His feeling? From the top, do not do anything with your body, just bring your arms down as fast as you can. His clubhead speed went up 5-6 MPH.

---

Though the above may feel… excessive, again, this is what I do. This is my area of expertise, and more importantly, of passion. I spend a lot of time and energy on this stuff, and I love discussing it. I hope it doesn't come across as too pointed at you - you're simply the catalyst that allowed me to talk about some more things. And, ultimately, I enjoy talking about this stuff - and spend so much time doing it - because the more ways I find it necessary to say things, the better I am able to explain it to a student, or a fellow instructor who I'm training, or whatever. The more I can get inside the heads of students to see what they might feel or might need to feel.

Executive summary: Your feelings are certainly your own, and you're entitled to them… but they don't accurately represent the reality of what's happening in the golf swing, any golf swing, including your own. You're using your arms to hit the golf ball. Quite a bit.

[Phil McGleno]

@Marty2019 would you go to a chemist with a pet theory about why a chemical reaction occurs and argue with them when they show you proof?-Cuz that is kind of what you are doing here.

You might feel like your arms do very little-But they are still being used to do more than connect your body to the grip.

Are these also alternative golf swings or are they just swings with WAY less rotation?

 

[Marty2019]

I promise you guys, I will pry my mind open with a crowbar and think about it.   That's all I can do at this point. 

Good discussion. 

 

[Lihu]

39 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

I promise you guys, I will pry my mind open with a crowbar and think about it.   That's all I can do at this point. 

Good discussion. 

It might also help to think about what muscles are used to move your arms?

[mnguy19]

I don't doubt it, I have started focusing on loosening my wrists and arms in the downswing while making sure to swing with my body. My results have convinced me to change my old, inconsistent swing and go for the more effortless looking swing. I know Paul Wilson talks a lot about this in his Youtube videos if you want some more info.

[Mike Boatright]

Check out around 7;30 seconds It's science man.

[billchao]

On 2/23/2016 at 1:11 AM, vangator said:

I believe Newton's Third Law of Motion (For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) would apply here.  Since the ball stays in contact with the clubface as it deforms, a clubface that doesn't rebound as much should apply more force.  If I were to create an experiment, I would go in with that hypothesis.  Could be wrong.

This is OT, but no. You get higher ball speeds from clubfaces that are more flexible. It's the trampoline effect.

[natureboy]

On 2/22/2016 at 9:50 AM, iacas said:

 

Of course they generate quite a bit of speed. This video shows the legs being taken out of it, and almost all rotation being taken out of the golf swing. Dave is able to generate 70% or so of his normal clubhead speed… just by swinging his arms.

While I absolutely agree arm muscles contribute, I think terminology relative to the 75% speed production might be a touch confusing to some.

When you say 'swinging the arms' or 'using the arms', some might read that as active arm muscle strength being the 75% factor.

But Dave is clearly rotating his upper thoracic to 'swing the arms' and likely using his rotator cuff, lats, and other shoulder muscles as well as likely some core muscles braced against his immobile hips in the chair.

The motion of the arms and wrist angles is what delivers the 75% speed, but the motive force behind the arm swing is likely rooted in the muscles of the shoulder / upper torso plus a little from the trail arm muscles.

The wrist hinge is a big element in delivering speed to the ball and if it was one of your points, I agree many amateurs restrict it unhelpfully.

Edited January 18, 2017 by natureboy

[iacas]

On 1/17/2017 at 11:34 PM, natureboy said:

While I absolutely agree arm muscles contribute, I think terminology relative to the 75% speed production might be a touch confusing to some.

When you say 'swinging the arms' or 'using the arms', some might read that as active arm muscle strength being the 75% factor.

But Dave is clearly rotating his upper thoracic to 'swing the arms' and likely using his rotator cuff, lats, and other shoulder muscles as well as likely some core muscles braced against his immobile hips in the chair.

Not much rotation going on here:

The point remains that the motion of your arms (shoulders, whatever) contribute the vast majority of the speed.

We never said "the muscles of the arms only."

Hell, I wrote "and almost all rotation being taken out of the golf swing."

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Not much rotation going on here:

The point remains that the motion of your arms (shoulders, whatever) contribute the vast majority of the speed.

We never said "the muscles of the arms only."

Hell, I wrote "and almost all rotation being taken out of the golf swing."

It doesn't look so small to me. His shoulder is almost back a half head length from the center of his neck. That would put the angle in the ~ vicinity of 20 degrees. Regardless, the movement just goes to show how important the upper trunk rotation (upper body overall) is to power.

Never said you even meant that. I knew you were focusing on upper vs. lower body. I could see potential for misunderstanding what was meant by 'power from your arms'. Some might think muscle power when you are talking more about the release of angles (with some trail arm extension - which I expect adds much less power than the small shoulder turn) in arms and wrists driven by trunk and shoulder muscle torque.

Edited January 25, 2017 by natureboy

[iacas]

8 hours ago, natureboy said:

It doesn't look so small to me.

Then you're arguing just to argue. 15-20° out of the normal 90-100° is small… particularly when he's still closed or square at impact (when normally he's 20° open or so).

8 hours ago, natureboy said:

Regardless, the movement just goes to show how important the upper trunk rotation (upper body overall) is to power.

I think it shows the opposite. Dave still manages to hit the ball 70% as far while rotating his upper body about 15% as much as normal, and while rotating his lower body ~0% as much as normal. I think it shows how important the arms and wrists are in the golf swing, and the power generated by them, as the title and description say.

8 hours ago, natureboy said:

Never said you even meant that. I knew you were focusing on upper vs. lower body. I could see potential for misunderstanding what was meant by 'power from your arms'. Some might think muscle power when you are talking more about the release of angles (with some trail arm extension - which I expect adds much less power than the small shoulder turn) in arms and wrists driven by trunk and shoulder muscle torque.

So to be clear… you think that tiny amount of Dave's shoulder turn (torso turn, whatever you want to call it) adds more power than his left arm moving across his chest, his wrists bending, his right elbow bending and extending?

Because if that's what you're saying, and it seems fairly clear that it is, I'm flabbergasted at how you could possibly believe that. It's wrong, and it is not even close.

Would you rather be slapped by someone who holds his right arm out in front of him and turns his torso 15-20° back and through while not bending his elbow or wrist at all, or by someone who keeps his torso in place but can move his arm, shoulder, elbow, and wrist to pull back and smack you across the face? If you're looking to get the lightest slap possible, the choice is abundantly clear.

[Phil McGleno]

@iacas what would you say the contributions are from the:

Lower body-Hips down

Upper body-Rotation

Arms-Accumulators 1-4 roughly?

Would you say 10% 30% 60%?

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

@iacas what would you say the contributions are from the:

Lower body-Hips down

Upper body-Rotation

Arms-Accumulators 1-4 roughly?

Would you say 10% 30% 60%?

Everyone's different. And I'm not sure how you separate out the hip turn versus the upper body turn because turning your hips will turn your torso. So I might put those closer to 50/50 (20/20?) for many players, maybe 10/30 is the other end of the extreme for players who don't turn their hips back much at all (they'll still turn them through the downswing).

Off the top of my head, as a rough average, 20/20/60 might be close to right. I wouldn't put the "arms" stuff below about 50% for most people. Not anyone good… I wouldn't think.

There's just not a lot of speed generated by pure rotation of the body with a static arm/clubhead sticking out from it.

---

Good players aren't often "snapping" the wrists or throwing out any lag, but what makes that lag "come out" is often a matter of what the entire rest of the body is doing. If you hinge your wrists but don't use your arms and just rotate, then apply the same types of torques (as near as possible) and amounts to the wrists during the downswing (again, no arms, just body rotation) the shaft may still lose lag and generate a little speed you'd otherwise attribute to the "arms" (or hands/wrists), but it too will be minimized or non-existent due to the slow speed at which you can rotate.

I'm generally not interested in figuring out what percentage each part applies, because it's different for everyone and even club to club will vary.

The video was an attempt to curtail the rampant over-emphasis on GRF and how important it was to get the vertical torques and a big moment arm and all that other stuff to work out… when it's contributing relatively little to the golf swing.