Hit it Over the Ditch or Lay up Short?

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, 9wood said:

Personally I like the challenge this hole presents. The real challenge for me comes on my second shot. I have as yet to hit the green on my second shot but I am getting closer. Once again, I'm hoping my new clubs might help me accomplish that so I can have a shot at a birdie. Other people I know who have this as their home course are always saying they try to drive their ball over the ditch but none of those I have talked to have said they were able to. I paired up one day with a self-professed hot-shot who told me that he drives over the ditch, but when he attempted it, he came up short. I have never as yet seen anyone who has done it. Those I know who have tried have always put it in the ditch. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I haven't seen anyone do it as yet.

Yeah, a consistently >251 carry is pretty rare.

 

Quote

Concerning getting more carry in WNY, Last year, I took a golfing friend of mine who moved to Florida 3 years ago to this course for a golf outing when he visited me. He lived in WNY all his life except the last three years. He has like a 3 HC. While we were playing this WNY course, he kept saying that it seemed like he was a club short on most of his shots, and that if this was Florida that the clubs he was using for the distance would have done the trick for him in Florida.

Humidity and temperature have a relatively large effect (to 600 feet of difference in altitude) on ball carry as well. When we are talking about such small variations it's hard to tell which effect is dominant?

Florida was quite humid as compared to Niagara when I went to both places last summer. That could explain the difference in your friend's case? You would need to take a lot of data under all conditions possible to really know.

[DrvFrShow]

Easy. I can clear that ditch only if there a strong tail wind and I make contact in the sweet spot with my driver, so I'm not taking that chance. My normal carry distance with perfect sweet spot contact is going to put the ball dead in the middle of the drainage ditch. I have to lay up with a 4 iron (my 2 iron with the 4 stamped on it). Depending upon the fairway conditions this will put me between 200 and 215 yds. My second shot, depending upon where I ended up could be a 5 wood or hybrid which will put me somewhere near the green complex. But since this is a three shot approach, I'll play the club I hit best of the two which is my hybrid - 180 yds. This will leave me a 35 yd pitch onto the green leaving  me a birdie putt. on this short par 5.

Note: I'm not a LPGA professional, so holes over 400 yds are par 5s, especially one designed like this.

If I were to play this as a par 4, a birdie is out of the question. I'm playing for a bogey and hoping for a par. I don't have the distance to carry the ditch, and I don't have the accuracy with my fairway woods.

[9wood]

10 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

 

Note: I'm not a LPGA professional, so holes over 400 yds are par 5s, especially one designed like this.

 

I personally don't believe you need to be a pro to get up and down in two on 400 yd holes. 

[vangator]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

Personally I like the challenge this hole presents. The real challenge for me comes on my second shot. I have as yet to hit the green on my second shot but I am getting closer. Once again, I'm hoping my new clubs might help me accomplish that so I can have a shot at a birdie. Other people I know who have this as their home course are always saying they try to drive their ball over the ditch but none of those I have talked to have said they were able to. I paired up one day with a self-professed hot-shot who told me that he drives over the ditch, but when he attempted it, he came up short. I have never as yet seen anyone who has done it. Those I know who have tried have always put it in the ditch. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I haven't seen anyone do it as yet.

Concerning getting more carry in WNY, Last year, I took a golfing friend of mine who moved to Florida 3 years ago to this course for a golf outing when he visited me. He lived in WNY all his life except the last three years. He has like a 3 HC. While we were playing this WNY course, he kept saying that it seemed like he was a club short on most of his shots, and that if this was Florida that the clubs he was using for the distance would have done the trick for him in Florida.

Interesting.  Maybe temperature was in play.  I think I generally get more yardage when I play up north, but it may be just the beer.

I think driving the ditch may still be in play for me, but the left side looks a little shorter, so that's where I may take it.  I used to play a few tournaments a year and holes like these are exactly why I like to play a round at a course before hand.  251 carry is getting at my normal limit for sure, but then laying up to 230 only leaves 180 or so.  That's doable.  No guts, no glory.

[No Mulligans]

Well... with the actual distances now presented, and given it's not downhill, I'm hitting driver every time.  I can't reach the ditch.  A good drive and a good 5 wood and I can reach the green.  Reality though, most of the time I'll be hitting a short iron or wedge on my 3rd shot.

[9wood]

18 minutes ago, vangator said:

I think driving the ditch may still be in play for me

OK, but are you confident enough to risk losing one of your Volvik balls?

[DrvFrShow]

7 minutes ago, 9wood said:

I personally don't believe you need to be a pro to get up and down in two on 400 yd holes. 

I don't make the guidelines on hole distances and course ratings. The USGA does. Men hit the ball further than women. That's a fact. 

If the ditch wasn't there and I could hit my driver and if I hit a good one, I'd hit a 5 or 6 iron into the green. However the ditch is there and any carry over 220 rolls into the ditch. The max carry I have ever gotten is 240. My normal drives are about 220 yds. and these include my off center hits.

[Dave2512]

46 minutes ago, 9wood said:

I personally don't believe you need to be a pro to get up and down in two on 400 yd holes. 

Not without some luck and it doesn't happen often. I played 81 rounds in 2015 and made just 34 birdies. Almost all of them on par 5's and the 2nd shortest par 4 we have because I own that hole. Every other one was something random, chipping in, lucky long putt that would have rolled 10' by the hole if it hadn't slammed into the hole.

On a par 4 over 400 I expect to make a bogey and I play for it if I don't have a clear cut path to a par. Just hitting the green requires two near perfect shots more often than not I am hitting a hybrid approach shot so not close to the hole. I average just 49% <15 yds from 150-175 and 30% <15 yds from 175-200.  My scoring average is 81.2 and I average 9 GIR. It's rare that more than half of those are anything but the 4 par 5's and the 2 sub 320 par 4's. The others are dumb luck type shots, the skulled 5i that rolls 50 yards and ends up a foot into the green after hitting the sign pointing the carts back to the path. I almost never hit the greens on the 400+ par 4's, maybe once every ten rounds.

 

[vangator]

17 minutes ago, 9wood said:

OK, but are you confident enough to risk losing one of your Volvik balls?

Maybe on the first try, I'd pull out a Pro V1.  I have a boat load of them.  I don't love them, but they perform OK.  If I lose one, no big deal.

If I were playing a tourney, I would keep the Volvik in play.

My miss is typically left which looks a little shorter, so that's good.  However, my really long drives tend to be right pushes.  The go straight and high and really carry.  Man if I could only bottle that shot.

I really have a fetish about losing my topline balls.  I only play the Volvik S3 on about 1/2 the holes I play.  I probably should play them on more holes because I'm still playing the first ball from the box.  That's been about 6 months.  They can get gnarly.  Probably lose some pop as well.  The S3 gets dingy too.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

I personally don't believe you need to be a pro to get up and down in two on 400 yd holes. 

@DrvFrShow already hits as far as a pro, so it probably would take an especially long LPGA pro to make it in two.

In my case, this 412 yard par 4 with a ditch takes my driver and 3W out of play so it ends up being a safe bogey or scramble par just as Julia said. We'd play it almost the same way just with slightly different clubs. Maybe on a hot summer day, and I'm feeling really hot with my driver would I even attempt to go for it.

 

20 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

On a par 4 over 400 I expect to make a bogey and I play for it if I don't have a clear cut path to a par. Just hitting the green requires two near perfect shots more often than not I am hitting a hybrid approach shot so not close to the hole. I average just 49% <15 yds from 150-175 and 30% <15 yds from 175-200.  My scoring average is 81.2 and I average 9 GIR. It's rare that more than half of those are anything but the 4 par 5's and the 2 sub 320 par 4's. The others are dumb luck type shots, the skulled 5i that rolls 50 yards and ends up a foot into the green after hitting the sign pointing the carts back to the path. I almost never hit the greens on the 400+ par 4's, maybe once every ten rounds.

Yes, the birdie statement makes this really really hard for most players to fathom. I know less than 10 golfers that can comfortably make this hole in 2 shots. More if I include the people on this site, but it's very rare and they usually have a + associated with their handicaps.

[9wood]

35 minutes ago, vangator said:

I only play the Volvik S3 on about 1/2 the holes I play.  

Do you have any knowledge of the Volvik DS 77 white balls. Are they inferior to the S3?

42 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Just hitting the green requires two near perfect shots 

 

Indeed it does. But it's not impossible. I am determined to get up and down in two on that hole at least once this year with the aid of some new clubs and 2 perfect shots. Last time I played that hole back on Dec 14th of last year when the temperature was in the 50's I almost got on in two using a 3 wood to drive and a 3 iron on my second shot. Stay tuned.

Edited March 3, 2016 by 9wood

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

I personally don't believe you need to be a pro to get up and down in two on 400 yd holes. 

@9wood DrvFrShow is a woman.  Women's yardages are significantly shorter than men's for the same par rating.

[Dave2512]

12 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

@9wood DrvFrShow is a woman.  Women's yardages are significantly shorter than men's for the same par rating.

She is a long hitter though may even play men's tees.

[billchao]

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

This would be a 251 carry.

Given the new information provided, I'm going to lay up. That ditch is now firmly placed inside my driver Shot Zone.

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, billchao said:

Given the new information provided, I'm going to lay up. That ditch is now firmly placed inside my driver Shot Zone.

That seems like the sensible thing for most of us to do. 225 carry is a heck of a lot different than a 251 carry.

[Dave2512]

I don't take on trouble because I never know if I will hit my best of day shot or worst of day shot. I just looked at my last Game Golf round. My longest drive was 317 shortest was 206. Either would work on this hole but it's usually something in between.

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Given the new information provided, I'm going to lay up. That ditch is now firmly placed inside my driver Shot Zone.

Me too, that ditch is just about perfect spot to catch my driver.

2 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

I don't make the guidelines on hole distances and course ratings. The USGA does. Men hit the ball further than women. That's a fact. 

If the ditch wasn't there and I could hit my driver and if I hit a good one, I'd hit a 5 or 6 iron into the green. However the ditch is there and any carry over 220 rolls into the ditch. The max carry I have ever gotten is 240. My normal drives are about 220 yds. and these include my off center hits.

How do hit the ball so far, 220-240 for a lady is really far unless your a pro and would hit a 5 or 6 iron another 170-180 but carry a 20.8 index? That's almost as far as I hit a 5 or 6 iron?

[DrvFrShow]

48 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

She is a long hitter though may even play men's tees.

I typically play longer courses that have the "ladies tees" at 5600 - 5800 yds, or those with men's senior tees which are the same lengths. I have the most fun at this length of course. I don't play the typical short ladies tees of 4900 or less.

But this is off topic.