I, @onthehunt526, No longer have issues with jacked lofts in SGI irons

[onthehunt526]

As @iacaswill tell you, I used to have a huge issue with jacked lofts in any irons.

After some research and some Common Sense realizations, I've arrived at this conclusion... strong lofts are necessary in SGI irons and even some GI Models...

I am not in the market for new irons (for myself anyway)... but when I saw the lofts of the TM M2 irons, I was about ready to scream, then I said, wait a minute, do some research, get the facts.

As it turns out, my "traditional loft" point of view... is being stubborn... I researched some other technical aspects and realized a few things...

1. SGI irons are designed with the lowest CG they can manufacture.

2. They're obviously built to helo get the ball airborne. 

3. They are designed is for,  High handicappers, anyway.

[esayers]

JUST BOUGHT MY FIRST SET OF SGI IRONS THIS YEAR BIG BERTHAS. AND NOT BEING A GREAT PLAYER HAVE HAD ISSUES WITH HITTING LOWER IRONS . WELL AFTER SOME TIME WITH THESE IRONS. I CAN TELL PEOPLE THAT FOR ME. EVEN THOUGH THE LOFTS ARE LOWER, A 6 IS LOFTED LIKE A OLD 5 ETC. THEY FLY JUST AS HIGH AS THE NUMBER THEY ARE COMPARED TO A 6 WILL PLAY LIKE A 6 BUT GO AS FAR AS A 5 . ITS A LOT OF FUN FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO HIT 4,5, AND 6 IRONS WITH SOME HEIGHT AND THEY DO GIVE ME SOME CONFIDENCE . BUT THEY ARE STILL EASY TO HIT POORLY AS WELL . I HONESTLY THINK ANY ONE WHO PLAYS A SET OF THESE FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME WILL UNDERSTAND . THAT LOFT IS NOT THE SOLE FACTOR TO HEIGHT AND SPIN. MY OLD SET OF IRONS THAT IM COMPARING TO WAS WILLSON 1200 TN FROM ABOUT 1988.

[newtogolf]

It's all about managing the gaps in your bag, stronger lofted irons might change where the gaps occur, you may need to drop a wood or an iron to add a wedge.  

I don't have an issue with stronger lofted irons on their own I just don't like the marketing games the manufacturers play on added distance.  If they label an iron a 6i but it's really a 4.5 or 5i and then try to compare that club distance wise to a more traditionally lofted iron of course it's going to be longer.  

The M2 gaps are tighter on the long irons (closer to the traditional 4* gap) but expand on the shorter irons which leaves you a 5.5* gap from 9i to the 43.5 degree pitching wedge, a 48 - 49 degree gap wedge and your going to have a 7 degree gap between your gap wedge and traditional 56* sand wedge.  

I've never hit the M2's so I don't know if the wider gaps are compensated for in other ways in the club head design but the gapping seems off to what I typically look for.  

[Ernest Jones]

26 minutes ago, esayers said:

JUST BOUGHT MY FIRST SET OF SGI IRONS THIS YEAR BIG BERTHAS. AND NOT BEING A GREAT PLAYER HAVE HAD ISSUES WITH HITTING LOWER IRONS . WELL AFTER SOME TIME WITH THESE IRONS. I CAN TELL PEOPLE THAT FOR ME. EVEN THOUGH THE LOFTS ARE LOWER, A 6 IS LOFTED LIKE A OLD 5 ETC. THEY FLY JUST AS HIGH AS THE NUMBER THEY ARE COMPARED TO A 6 WILL PLAY LIKE A 6 BUT GO AS FAR AS A 5 . ITS A LOT OF FUN FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO HIT 4,5, AND 6 IRONS WITH SOME HEIGHT AND THEY DO GIVE ME SOME CONFIDENCE . BUT THEY ARE STILL EASY TO HIT POORLY AS WELL . I HONESTLY THINK ANY ONE WHO PLAYS A SET OF THESE FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME WILL UNDERSTAND . THAT LOFT IS NOT THE SOLE FACTOR TO HEIGHT AND SPIN. MY OLD SET OF IRONS THAT IM COMPARING TO WAS WILLSON 1200 TN FROM ABOUT 1988.

Pardon?

[onthehunt526]

6 hours ago, newtogolf said:

It's all about managing the gaps in your bag, stronger lofted irons might change where the gaps occur, you may need to drop a wood or an iron to add a wedge.  

I don't have an issue with stronger lofted irons on their own I just don't like the marketing games the manufacturers play on added distance.  If they label an iron a 6i but it's really a 4.5 or 5i and then try to compare that club distance wise to a more traditionally lofted iron of course it's going to be longer.  

The M2 gaps are tighter on the long irons (closer to the traditional 4* gap) but expand on the shorter irons which leaves you a 5.5* gap from 9i to the 43.5 degree pitching wedge, a 48 - 49 degree gap wedge and your going to have a 7 degree gap between your gap wedge and traditional 56* sand wedge.  

I've never hit the M2's so I don't know if the wider gaps are compensated for in other ways in the club head design but the gapping seems off to what I typically look for.  

Higher handicapped players tend to have tighter distance gaps though. I know of a few guys who tend to hit 2 or 3 clubs within 10 yards of each other.

Traditional gapped clubs aren't going to be beneficial to everyone, especially inconsistent ball strikers, such as for example, a 30 handicap struggling to break 100...

I will say that getting lessons, and working on consistent ball striking with probably be more beneficial in the long run. However, a properly fit set of SGI irons combined with lessons a high handicapper will notice their gaps are more manageable than with let's say a traditionally gapped iron set.

I'm not sure what category the new 716 AP1 irons are, but I'm guess they are either on the very forgiving GI end, or they are SGI. The lofts of the new AP1s are very strong, but they are traditionally gapped so I'm guessing they are designed for a mid-handicap.

On the gapping standpoint, a low to mid handicap could have problems with having 5 clubs between a 28.5° 7-iron and a 55° SW, when traditionally their are 6 between 28° and 55°, however a higher-handicap can definitely get away with it.

Though most of today's SGI 4 and 5 irons would normally violate the Tom Wishon 24°/38" rule, the CG is so low in these SGI irons that even high handicaps can hit credible shots with them.

[BigUnit68]

My son and I both have M2's. He's a 14 and I'm an 8. We both love them. I don't have any issues thusfar with the lofts or loft gaps in the lower irons. 

I do agree, higher caps would benefit from these clubs because of how easy they are to hit. My strength has always been my short game and weakness was long irons and ball striking...that weakness is not nearly as evident anymore as I seem to really be able to hit all these irons well.

So i don't think you have to have a higher handicap to benefit from having these.

[onthehunt526]

1 hour ago, BigUnit68 said:

My son and I both have M2's. He's a 14 and I'm an 8. We both love them. I don't have any issues thusfar with the lofts or loft gaps in the lower irons. 

I do agree, higher caps would benefit from these clubs because of how easy they are to hit. My strength has always been my short game and weakness was long irons and ball striking...that weakness is not nearly as evident anymore as I seem to really be able to hit all these irons well.

So i don't think you have to have a higher handicap to benefit from having these.

True, higher handicaps benefit from it because of the ease of getting the ball up in the air for more carry.

I can see that mid handicappers also benefit as well as the upper end of lower handicaps.

Like I stated, the loft gaps in the shorter clubs could become an issue for some players as their gapping improves.

I personally don't have an issue with it, anymore... The evolution of this game has been great... 

I personally play what is considered either a workable GI club, or a forgiving player's club, my lofts aren't as "jacked" as the M2's, the gapping is a tiny issue in mine as I have a 22° 4-iron 25° 5-iron 28° 6-iron 31° 7-iron, 35° 8-iron, 40° 9-iron, 45° PW, 50° AW, and own the 55° SW... it's consistent from 8-iron down. I'm not worried about having say 13-15 yard gaps as opposed to 10-12 yard gaps, because I've been working on partial swing shots a lot.

I suppose I would do the same with the M2 irons, or any other iron that has slightly bigger gaps from 7-iron down. 

IMHO, I think with the launch angles being better with the lower CGs, It helps the game of many, more than it hurts it.

[boogielicious]

11 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

As @iacaswill tell you, I used to have a huge issue with jacked lofts in any irons.

After some research and some Common Sense realizations, I've arrived at this conclusion... strong lofts are necessary in SGI irons and even some GI Models...

I am not in the market for new irons (for myself anyway)... but when I saw the lofts of the TM M2 irons, I was about ready to scream, then I said, wait a minute, do some research, get the facts.

As it turns out, my "traditional loft" point of view... is being stubborn... I researched some other technical aspects and realized a few things...

1. SGI irons are designed with the lowest CG they can manufacture.

2. They're obviously built to helo get the ball airborne. 

3. They are designed is for,  High handicappers, anyway.

It is taking time, but solely thinking about the measured loft on irons and woods is going away. There will always be the die-hards who hang on the old myths about club design ("I'll play my persimmons until the day I die").

What is most important is how the clubs perform, sound and look to you. People clinging to old myths are the guys more likely to be playing a 8.5 deg driver for pride and flipping to get it into the air. Same with irons. I've gone from blades in my first set, to cavity backs, to multi-material and now to GI irons. Why? Because I'm older and want to keep playing at my level or get better. I can do that with more forgiving irons.

[BigUnit68]

22 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

....Because I'm older and want to keep playing at my level or get better. I can do that with more forgiving irons.

I suppose this is a good explanation for myself as well at 47 yrs old...the biggest difference for me though is the ability to hit long irons consistently now with GI irons. I always had gaps  in the higher end of my bag but they seem to be closing now.

[onthehunt526]

8 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It is taking time, but solely thinking about the measured loft on irons and woods is going away. There will always be the die-hards who hang on the old myths about club design ("I'll play my persimmons until the day I die").

What is most important is how the clubs perform, sound and look to you. People clinging to old myths are the guys more likely to be playing a 8.5 deg driver for pride and flipping to get it into the air. Same with irons. I've gone from blades in my first set, to cavity backs, to multi-material and now to GI irons. Why? Because I'm older and want to keep playing at my level or get better. I can do that with more forgiving irons.

I think that the CG's are so low and to the rear, the numbered clubs are probably on their way out. We're almost to the point, where they are going to have to do just lofts on irons. Not traditional numbers, SGI clubs will be made in 32 different lofts, 19-50°, Players irons will have 32 lofts from 17°-47°, and GI irons will have 31 lofts from 20°-50°.

Wait a minute, Ben Hogan already does that.

[Lihu]

Why did or does static loft mean so much to you?

[onthehunt526]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Why did or does static loft mean so much do you?

Because I thought with the static lofts decreasing that they were killing golf...

I did a little research and realized loft was only one component to getting the ball airborne, The CG's have gotten so low, the companies had to lower the lofts to make the clubs usable...

So it made me come to the conclusion, the number on the bottom of the club, doesn't matter, you just need to know how far you hit each club... the number stamped doesn't matter, nor does the static loft, just knowing your distance.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

Because I thought with the static lofts decreasing that they were killing golf...

I did a little research and realized loft was only one component to getting the ball airborne, The CG's have gotten so low, the companies had to lower the lofts to make the clubs usable...

So it made me come to the conclusion, the number on the bottom of the club, doesn't matter, you just need to know how far you hit each club... the number stamped doesn't matter, nor does the static loft, just knowing your distance.

Agreed, and not knowing how far you hit can be bad

[onthehunt526]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Agreed, and not knowing how far you hit can be bad

Yes it can.

My point is as SGI/UGI irons are designed for beginners/higher handicaps. I am not saying that a lower/middle handicap player couldn't play SGI/UGI.

@BigUnit68 is an 8 Handicap and he loves his M2 irons, and if they make YOUR game better, that's great... 

The static loft gaps are bigger in the shorter clubs, 7-iron 28.5, 8-iron 33, 9-iron 38, PW 43.5, AW 49, SW 55 something you would think would bother a low handicap, but as long as he knows how far he hits each club, and it works for him, I'm happy for him.

[mvmac]

On 3/20/2016 at 7:44 PM, onthehunt526 said:

After some research and some Common Sense realizations, I've arrived at this conclusion... strong lofts are necessary in SGI irons and even some GI Models...

Good post!

[saevel25]

11 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

My point is as SGI/UGI irons are designed for beginners/higher handicaps. I am not saying that a lower/middle handicap player couldn't play SGI/UGI.

It's tough because the clubs are not designed for high swing speeds. Lower to middle handicap golfers can probably get away with the long irons being more GI. It would not be beneficial to have much GI in the short to mid irons. It makes it very hard to control trajectory.

 

[boogielicious]

13 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Because I thought with the static lofts decreasing that they were killing golf...

I did a little research and realized loft was only one component to getting the ball airborne, The CG's have gotten so low, the companies had to lower the lofts to make the clubs usable...

So it made me come to the conclusion, the number on the bottom of the club, doesn't matter, you just need to know how far you hit each club... the number stamped doesn't matter, nor does the static loft, just knowing your distance.

Absolutely!

[onthehunt526]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's tough because the clubs are not designed for high swing speeds. Lower to middle handicap golfers can probably get away with the long irons being more GI. It would not be beneficial to have much GI in the short to mid irons. It makes it very hard to control trajectory.

 

That is the absolute truth. 

I consider myself a mid-handicap though on the lower end... And I'm really learning how to hit partial shots with say 7-iron down. CG in my EXi irons is pretty low, but not as low as the M2's or even the sister to the EXi which is the EXd. In order for me to be confident in partial, chippy, full swing motion shots, I need a slightly, higher CG. I'm around 88 mph with my 7-iron, so I would probably balloon the ball with an SGI iron.

Someone like @WUTiger who has a lower swing speed than I, would definitely benefit from an SGI iron.

@mvmac has an SGI 4-iron, which goes to your point about better players being able to play longer irons in SGI.

Flighting the ball, is something when higher handicappers improve and progress into an iron that needs a slightly higher CG, they will understand it.

The main issue higher handicaps struggle with is, getting enough height on the ball and distance. The new crop of SGI clubs will help them achieve both facets.

The design is mainly for low to moderate swing speeds. But higher swing speeds can play them, with a stiffer shaft.

If I played M2's, XR 16, BB, GMax,EXd, etc. I would almost definitely need to play a shaft with a high kick point, that's probably X-Flex. I have KBS Tour 105 stiff in my EXi irons which is a mid kick.

So yes, they are for higher handicaps with a slower swing speed. The SGI irons will help someone who has tighter distance gaps as well.