Par 4's made reachable in two

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, 9wood said:

Anyone who has followed my posts knows that I like a challenge. I don't want a course that is designed for bogey golfers like me just so that I can make par easier. I'm not even concerned with how many pars I make. I don't have an ego that needs to feed itself off of pars and birdies. How low my score and HC is doesn't even matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is a challenge. It's the little victories in the challenges that matters. Why do so many people want a course especially designed so they can make par. Do they need that for an ego trip?

Like struggling on the "men's tees" rather than having fun playing golf on the "ladies tees"?

 

 

 

[DrvFrShow]

6 hours ago, 9wood said:

Anyone who has followed my posts knows that I like a challenge. I don't want a course that is designed for bogey golfers like me just so that I can make par easier. I'm not even concerned with how many pars I make. I don't have an ego that needs to feed itself off of pars and birdies. How low my score and HC is doesn't even matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is a challenge. It's the little victories in the challenges that matters. Why do so many people want a course especially designed so they can make par. Do they need that for an ego trip?

Your handicap isn't much better than mine. Most people can't make par even playing from appropriate tees. Hit a decent tee shot, then get a nGIR (pin high but right or left of the green), chip onto the green and two putt. That's a bogey on a par 4. Most people will duff a shot now and then too. So add a stroke and make that a double bogey. Hit a GIR and hope you don't three putt - get it close and you have a chance for birdie or par. I'll bet you don't break 80 and it will be touch and go for 85, but I'll bet you have more fun playing. I don't have a problem with this. Do you think this is a lack of challenge?

[Mike Boatright]

Any par 4 where you leave your self at least 200 yard's in is playable depends on what your looking for. Try mixing up the tees when you play if the hole is to long move up if it's to short move back etc..

[9wood]

9 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Like @Fourputt said, I wouldn't call those middle tees the senior tees. And "women's tees" is outdated terminology

The terminology isn't outdated where I play. Everyone here uses that terminology

[boogielicious]

1 minute ago, 9wood said:

The terminology isn't outdated where I play. Everyone here uses that terminology

Then they need to move into the 21st century. 

[9wood]

4 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Any par 4 where you leave your self at least 200 yard's in is playable depends on what your looking for. Try mixing up the tees when you play if the hole is to long move up if it's to short move back etc..

You only have just so many tee boxes to pick between. I move up as far as I can without using the women's tees. Secondly, many of the golfers in my location, especially those over 65 years old have difficulty driving the ball 200 yds, let alone hitting a 2nd shot off the deck for 200 yds. 

4 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Your handicap isn't much better than mine. Most people can't make par even playing from appropriate tees. Hit a decent tee shot, then get a nGIR (pin high but right or left of the green), chip onto the green and two putt. That's a bogey on a par 4. Most people will duff a shot now and then too. So add a stroke and make that a double bogey. Hit a GIR and hope you don't three putt - get it close and you have a chance for birdie or par. I'll bet you don't break 80 and it will be touch and go for 85, but I'll bet you have more fun playing. I don't have a problem with this. Do you think this is a lack of challenge?

For me, score is irrelevant, it just doesn't matter to me. What matters is whether or not I am enjoying myself during the round. And I always do.

8 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The middle tees are not senior tees.  I thought I made that point earlier.  That course doesn't have what most would call senior tees.  You are playing the regular men's tees.   

But there is a substantial difference in yardage in using the middle tees, especially on 9 of the 18 holes and up here the folks do call them the senior tees

8 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Then they need to move into the 21st century. 

Sure, but it just doesn't matter to folks up here. 

[jsgolfer]

12 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I've never heard the middle tees called "senior" tees before.  Usually if a course has a tee set aimed at seniors, they are forward of the middle tees.  This is a case where they should change from those traditional colors and encourage seniors and juniors to play the forward tees, or use combo tees with a mix of the  red and white tees to create a course with yardage between 6195 and 5081.

That is a strangely set up course, with only one par 4 hole that is shorter from the white tees than from the blue tees.  It really isn't very "tee it forward" friendly.

Springfield is doing the combo tees this year, haven't received the new scorecards yet, but with the new combo tees, it will add three more different yardages to play the course.

We'll have Green/Red, Red/White and White/Blue and there is talk of adding the Blue/Gold.  

8 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The middle tees are not senior tees.  I thought I made that point earlier.  That course doesn't have what most would call senior tees.  You are playing the regular men's tees.   

I agree, with only three sets of tees they are the regular men's tees.  It's time to retire the red tee color.  I played a course in Florida that did just that to get people away from saying I'm not playing the ladies tees.  At some point they are just tees to play from.  Golf is Hard! and you should play from the tees that give you the most enjoyment.    

 

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, 9wood said:

You only have just so many tee boxes to pick between. I move up as far as I can without using the women's tees. Secondly, many of the golfers in my location, especially those over 65 years old have difficulty driving the ball 200 yds, let alone hitting a 2nd shot off the deck for 200 yds. 

For me, score is irrelevant, it just doesn't matter to me. What matters is whether or not I am enjoying myself during the round. And I always do.

But there is a substantial difference in yardage in using the middle tees, especially on 9 of the 18 holes and up here the folks do call them the senior tees

Sure, but it just doesn't matter to folks up here. 

Then "folks up there" are living in the wrong century.  I played the middle tees on my home course, and most other courses, for most of my 40 years in the game.  

Giving a tee set such a colloquial designation is misleading, and is counter to the attempts today for improving pace of play.  It's particularly puzzling to me, since calling the white tees "senior" tees goes against the standards used in the rest of the golf world.  I've played a course where the middle tees (what you like to call Senior) are almost 6800 yards.  The next set back, what you would call the Men's tees, are over 7200.  And those aren't the tips, which are at 7700 yards.  If you stayed locked into your philosophy, you'd probably struggle to break 150 there.  

This is the problem with putting names that refer to age or gender on tees that it attach stigma to them - aims some players at a tee set where they have no business playing.  The 21st century idea is to ignore color or any appellation and look at nothing but the yardage which best suits your game to choose a set of tees.  The course I mentioned above calls them:  Slag, Gold, Copper, Limestone, and Brick - reference to the mining that first drew people to the area.  My brother and I play the Limestone tees there at 6144 yards, and don't feel the least bit guilty about it. Another course I've played has them named for local wildflowers.  One of my favorites has combo tees named T-rex, Trike and Palm, along with the more normal Black, Blue, White and Gold.  

Note that there are no red tees on any of these courses, nothing to suggest that a particular tee is for women only, nor are there any senior or junior tees.  It's recommended that you pick a yardage that is appropriate for your game, and if you fall off the pace because you didn't (or for any other reason), you can count on seeing the ranger.

[Dave2512]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

 

Giving a tee set such a colloquial designation is misleading, and is counter to the attempts today for improving pace of play.  

This is the problem with putting names that refer to age or gender on tees that it attaches a stigma to them - aims some players at a tee set where they have no business playing.  

Yes and yes.

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, 9wood said:

The terminology isn't outdated where I play. Everyone here uses that terminology

Sure, but you can get course ratings for the red tees. It really sounds like you should be playing shorter tees if you have trouble reaching most of the par 4s with a driver/iron.

I've played the red tees many times in the past. Once I was able to hit more efficiently, I played farther back because I found myself driving the distances of the greens from the red tees.

 

5 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Then they need to move into the 21st century. 

Yeah, really. . .

 

5 hours ago, 9wood said:

You only have just so many tee boxes to pick between. I move up as far as I can without using the women's tees. Secondly, many of the golfers in my location, especially those over 65 years old have difficulty driving the ball 200 yds, let alone hitting a 2nd shot off the deck for 200 yds. 

For me, score is irrelevant, it just doesn't matter to me. What matters is whether or not I am enjoying myself during the round. And I always do.

But there is a substantial difference in yardage in using the middle tees, especially on 9 of the 18 holes and up here the folks do call them the senior tees

Sure, but it just doesn't matter to folks up here. 

No, it sounds like your views on playing the red tees is more relevant than scoring better, so stop complaining about your score or reaching par 4s in 2!

[Dave2512]

No doubt people can do whatever they want but to me being okay with not having a chance to make par is silly. That is how we measure ourselves, it's the benchmark to compare our scores against. Adopting a variation where 3 shots to the green and bogey or worse feels good kinda flies in the face of every standard. I get golfers like a challenge but it's already laid out for us, the challenge is measuring our ability relative to par. Not just the hole but the course.

When I am standing on the tee everything is based on par. I choose what club, envision where to land it and how my second shot ideally would be played. When something doesn't happen as sketched every adjustment is based on par and preservation of score when that isn't attainable. Even practice is meant to improve how we play so we can score better.

[9wood]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

 If you stayed locked into your philosophy, you'd probably struggle to break 150 there.  

This is the problem with putting names that refer to age or gender on tees that it attach stigma to them - aims some players at a tee set where they have no business playing.  The 21st century idea is to ignore color or any appellation and look at nothing but the yardage which best suits your game to choose a set of tees.  The course I mentioned above calls them:  Slag, Gold, Copper, Limestone, and Brick - reference to the mining that first drew people to the area.  My brother and I play the Limestone tees there at 6144 yards, and don't feel the least bit guilty about it. Another course I've played has them named for local wildflowers.  One of my favorites has combo tees named T-rex, Trike and Palm, along with the more normal Black, Blue, White and Gold.  

Note that there are no red tees on any of these courses, nothing to suggest that a particular tee is for women only, nor are there any senior or junior tees.  It's recommended that you pick a yardage that is appropriate for your game, and if you fall off the pace because you didn't (or for any other reason), you can count on seeing the ranger.

I never shot 150 even playing the longest tees. Playing the middle tees I had two rounds of 86 last year but my average score is around 90 or so.

You folks out in Colorado can do what you want, but where I play we don't have as many tee options as you have listed therefore what you folks do in Colorado is not applicable to how things are done where I play. If you played here you would just have to get use to having less tee boxes that what you are use to out where you reside.

7 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

 Golf is Hard! and you should play from the tees that give you the most enjoyment.    

 

True, and I don't have any desire for someone to try to make it easier for me. If I wanted easy, I would just play putt-putt

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

 It really sounds like you should be playing shorter tees if you have trouble reaching most of the par 4s with a driver/iron.

So, it sounds like your views on playing the red tees is more relevant than scoring better, so stop complaining about your score or reaching par 4s in 2!

The only men in my neck of the woods that play the red tees, or what we refer to as the woman's tees all wear frilly undies.

I never complained about my score. Score is irrelevant to me. I play for enjoyment - and I always enjoy it independent of any score. A lot of times I don't even bother to keep score.

[dave s]

I can relate to the scorecard 9-wood posted.  For us older guys, (and I'm only 56) who drive the ball 200-225 yards, playing tees that range from 5800-6200 (limit) is a reasonable course length for us.  On the short side, (5800) I'll make pars and have birdie opportunities.  On the long side, (6200) I'm really scrambling for pars or routinely making bogey on the longer par 4s and maybe par 5s as they approach 525 or longer.

When you can bomb it off the tee, golf becomes an easy game!  When you can't, you play tees that are commensurate with your REAL driving distance to have chances at pars and maybe a few birdie opportunities each round.

Here's the 'tee it forward' table (general info) from a website:

TEE IT FORWARD
This chart is a guideline to help golfers align their average driving distance with the course length best suited to their abilities.

Driver Distance	Recommended 18-Hole Yardages
275	6,700-6,900
250	6,200-6,400
225	5,800-6,000
200	5,200-5,400
175	4,400-4,600
150	3,500-3,700
125	2,800-3,000
100	2,100-2,300

 

[Dave2512]

Problem is most guys have no idea what their reality average is. Their estimates usually based on best of potential completely ignoring that if they hit driver 13-14 times 10-11 of those are mishits with varying degrees of ugly.

I know why they publish the charts the way they do but IME the instance of longer than optimal approach shots tells the story of how well you drive it. If you hit driver 13-14 times and your day was filled with a bunch of long iron and hybrid approaches you don't drive the ball as well as you think.

[jsgolfer]

On 3/30/2016 at 2:23 PM, 9wood said:

I have to admit that I use to get a bit frustrated to not be able to get on some of the par 4's in two which I always though were reachable for me, if only I had the right equipment. Before adding an 3-4 adjustable hybrid to my bag my second shots would always fall short of the greens. Now that I have been able to play a couple of rounds of golf using my new hybrid on second shots, I have been able to reach some of the par 4 holes in two which I would always end up short of before adding this hybrid to my bag. For the first time ever, I was able to reach some of these greens in 2, even though the fairways were very wet and soft which didn't allow for hardly any roll on my drive shots. I should be able to do even better once the fairways dry out some so I can get good ball roll on my drive shots. This should be an exciting season for golfing with the addition of my new Cobra bio cell 3-4 adjustable hybrid.

Maybe we are all reading your initial post incorrectly.  You said you were frustrated by not being able to reach some of the long par 4's in two but now you believe you will with the right equipment.  Usually the equipment isn't the issue, it is the set of tees that people play based on their ability.  Maybe it is only the equipment but that is typically not the norm for most players. I hope the new club serves you well throughout the golf season.

18 minutes ago, 9wood said:

True, and I don't have any desire for someone to try to make it easier for me. If I wanted easy, I would just play putt-putt

The only men in my neck of the woods that play the red tees, or what we refer to as the woman's tees all wear frilly undies.

I never complained about my score. Score is irrelevant to me. I play for enjoyment - and I always enjoy it independent of any score. A lot of times I don't even bother to keep score.

I never said to make it easier, I merely suggested that play a set of tees that gives you the most enjoyment.  And if that is the white tees at the course you play, knock yourself out.

 I play from the red and green tees a couple times a year and I'm pretty sure I don't wear frilly undies.  It is nice to have to hit different clubs off tees and into greens, just makes you think differently around the golf course.  

 

 

[Dave2512]

He's not looking for advice as much as just talking about golf. Which is fine, we all like golf. Everyone gets different things from it. I am a handicap and score chaser, probably overly serious. People like my folks just want to get out with friends and family and spend time together.

[bubble]

I know a bunch of 60-70 seniors that hit it very long (and straight) and are not fit.

Also they can get up and down a load (it's often depressing in match play).

it's a question of technique.

So I think there is a lot of hope for all before being brought to forward tees with a bad handicap or reviewing courses for those rare individuals that dont search to get a proper technique.

 

 

[Lihu]

On 3/30/2016 at 11:23 AM, 9wood said:

I have to admit that I use to get a bit frustrated to not be able to get on some of the par 4's in two

If you don't care about score then why worry about reaching a par 4 in 2 shots?

59 minutes ago, 9wood said:

The only men in my neck of the woods that play the red tees, or what we refer to as the woman's tees all wear frilly undies.

I'm going to play the red tees this weekend and see what my playing partners say even though I already out drive most of them.