DJ relief from rough to fairway, 10th hole Sunday

[iacas]

10 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

After DJ got to move his ball from a terrible lie deep down in the rough to placing it on the 1st cut, he proceeded to hit his ball directly over the tower, making it quite clear he was not asking for relief so that he could go around the tower, he wanted the relief to get a good enough lie to go over the tower. Questionable sportsmanship caused by a bad rule.

It's line of sight relief.*

9 hours ago, saevel25 said:

The the RO did a poor job in determining where DJ should drop. It's not a bad rule. If the TIO was still in DJ's way then it was the RO fault. 

No he didn't. It's line of sight relief.*

 

* I put the asterisk there because it's not really "line of sight." I'll bold and red the part that is commonly said as "line of sight."

Quote

 

"1. Definition 

A temporary immovable obstruction (TIO) is a non-permanent artificial object that is often erected in conjunction with a competition and is fixed or not readily movable. Examples of TIOs include, but are not limited to, tents, scoreboards, grandstands, television towers and lavatories. 

Supporting guy wires are part of the TIO, unless the Committee declares that they are to be treated as elevated power lines or cables. 

2. Interference 

Interference by a TIO occurs when (a) the ball lies in front of and so close to the TIO that the TIO interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing, or (b) the ball lies in, on, under or behind the TIO so that any part of the TIO intervenes directly between the player's ball and the hole and is on his line of play; interference also exists if the ball lies within one club-length of a spot equidistant from the hole where such intervention would exist. 

Note: A ball is under a TIO when it is below the outermost edges of the TIO, even if these edges do not extend downwards to the ground. 

3. Relief 

A player may obtain relief from interference by a TIO, including a TIO that is out of bounds, as follows: 

(a)

Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies must be determined that (a) is not nearer the hole, (b) avoids interference as defined in Clause 2 and (c) is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of the point so determined on a part of the course that fulfils (a), (b) and (c) above.

 

 

The bold red part is what's commonly called "line of sight relief." You get relief if both conditions are met. There is an "and" between them. Those two conditions are:

• directly between his ball and the hole.
• on his line of play.

Now, before you @SquirrelNutz say "ha ha, gotcha!" about the second, that is simply there so that a player won't get relief for a concession stand buried in the trees on a dogleg left if it's impractical to play in that direction. BOTH conditions have to be met: between the ball and the hole, and reasonable to play in that direction so that it could be line of play.

This is the same type of logic that prevents a player from aiming 100 yards left of a green with a 7-iron so that his left foot is just resting on a sprinkler head. That's not his line of play or a reasonable stance to take.

Where DJ dropped, he was free of the TIO, because it was no longer directly between his ball and the hole.

It's that simple.

[Buckeyebowman]

11 hours ago, saevel25 said:

It's not a bad rule. It doesn't matter what the intent was. 

The TIO is not part of the course and the players get relief from it if it interferes with their line of play. Why should the players have to work around an obstruction that is not owned or part of the course? 

How is it questionable sportsmanship? 

 

11 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Questionable sportsmanship in the sense the tower was still in DJ's line of play after the drop. No way to know for sure, but after DJ hit the ball directly over the tower on to the 10th green, it certainly appeared DJ was using the rule to get a better lie, not to get the tower out of his line of play.

I think you guys are confusing line of play (if there is such a thing) with "line of sight"! If a TIO interferes with a player seeing his target, he is entitled to relief. How his ball travels after that depends on his stroke.

We have no way of knowing, but DJ just might have been using the rule to get a better lie. The rule says he is "entitled" to a drop, but that doesn't mean he has to take one. As I said before, that drop might have put him in 2 foot tall fescue. In that case I'm sure he would not take the drop and choose to play the ball as it lay. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

As has been said before, the rules can hurt you or help you. It's up to you to know how. And, if it's within the rules it is proper sportsmanship. Nothing in the rules of golf say you have to make it harder on yourself than everyone else.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I think you guys are confusing line of play (if there is such a thing) with "line of sight"! If a TIO interferes with a player seeing his target, he is entitled to relief.

Scroll up a post or two.

[Buckeyebowman]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Scroll up a post or two.

Ahh! I was quoting posts from an earlier page.

And I am hoping that guys understand that a lot of these rules are written specifically for tournament play when a lot of "stuff" shows up on the course that we would never encounter.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[klund]

My first thought when i saw this is was that it looked like NPR would be to the right of the tower. I can not find shotlink data for the US open. Anyone did any measurements?

Also i believe as some other posters say before it was not reasonable for the tv tower to be reached from were he was but again this can not proven so we have to take his word for it. Which to me does not say much after the putting incident. Im happy either way as he made me $500 on the betting.

The thing about this rule that i think is revving people up is that the player decides if he wants it. Its obvious in this case that the TV tower was not really the issue. The lie was. He would never have claimed this if he was in the fariway and NPR was in the deep stuff.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, klund said:

My first thought when i saw this is was that it looked like NPR would be to the right of the tower. I can not find shotlink data for the US open. Anyone did any measurements?

Also i believe as some other posters say before it was not reasonable for the tv tower to be reached from were he was but again this can not proven so we have to take his word for it. Which to me does not say much after the putting incident. Im happy either way as he made me $500 on the betting.

The thing about this rule that i think is revving people up is that the player decides if he wants it. Its obvious in this case that the TV tower was not really the issue. The lie was. He would never have claimed this if he was in the fariway and NPR was in the deep stuff.

Right, but… the player often has the choice to take relief or not. It's not mandatory relief.

Sometimes I've played a ball off a cart path because the drop would put me in a likely bad lie.

What I don't get is the people saying it was "sleazy" or whatever to take the relief.

[klund]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right, but… the player often has the choice to take relief or not. It's not mandatory relief.

Sometimes I've played a ball off a cart path because the drop would put me in a likely bad lie.

What I don't get is the people saying it was "sleazy" or whatever to take the relief.

Agreed i have also "used" the rules to my advantage but it has always been reasonable. This incident looks strange to me. I also feel i often see from PGA tour that the officials are a bit weak in their rulings. They are for sure very scared to get it wrong! More should be like the offical in the below clip.

Maybe a bit OT and should be in antoher thread. 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by klund

[Shindig]

On 6/23/2016 at 8:36 AM, SquirrelNutz said:

Hope nobody at The Master's reads my criticism of absurdly fast greens in majors or I might get banned from Augusta like Gary McCord.

Gary McCord's banning at Augusta National wasn't because he criticized fast greens.  Just another easily-checkable fact you're getting wrong in this discussion that could be fixed...

23 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I gotta admit to limited knowledge about the principles behind some golf rules. Principles of Golf Rules 101 sounds like it would be one of the most boring classes ever. 

It's actually an entertaining read, and very inexpensive too.  Once upon a time, this forum was debating making reading it a requirement of participating in Rules discussions.  Even without that requirement, I'd suggest you get it and read it.  Short, highly informational read, and you never know when a rule might help you.

[iacas]

16 hours ago, klund said:

This incident looks strange to me. I also feel i often see from PGA tour that the officials are a bit weak in their rulings. They are for sure very scared to get it wrong!

It doesn't look strange to me, and it was not a PGA Tour official who made the ruling. The ruling on 10, I still have no idea how anyone has any issue with it. It was totally fine, and on the up and up, and DJ was smart (not something I ever thought I'd say… but maybe it was his caddie/brother who noticed? ) to ask for and get relief from the TIO.

[SquirrelNutz]

Last post for me, which I'm sure will make most here happy. I still think its a bad rule, that could be made better by adding that whenever possible, the player must take his drop in a lie similar to where he was to begin with. From primary rough to 2nd cut or fairway not allowed unless there are no other alternatives. Thought this might be a friendly forum because most of the people I have met on the golf course we're friendly. Gotta stay consistent in my last post by going even farther off topic. Greatest college basketball player of all time, Bill Walton, playing 2nd percussion again with Electric Waste Band tomorrow evening at Ocean Beach Street Fair. I did fact check this one, I was at Winston's for the EWB show Monday night when they announced it. Saw my 1st Tommy Castro & The Painkillers show last night. Wow, that San Francisco bluesman can really play guitar. Peace. Thanks naturelover for the friendly reply in my Oakmont US worthy? thread. I will yield to the vast majority on that thread and agree Oakmont is a worthy US Open course, even without the trees. One things for sure, the last LPGA major in WA state was a great tournament, while the last PGA major at Oakmont was 1 of the worst majors ever, thanks partly to the Thurs rain, but mostly because it was messed up by the DJ ball moving controversy and crazy wait til tournaments over to decide if DJ is penalized. Peace. SquirrelNutz out.

[iacas]

14 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Last post for me, which I'm sure will make most here happy. I still think its a bad rule, that could be made better by adding that whenever possible, the player must take his drop in a lie similar to where he was to begin with.

You've said that, and others have pointed out why that isn't the case, and why they wouldn't support that type of change to the rule.

14 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

From primary rough to 2nd cut or fairway not allowed unless there are no other alternatives.

There was no alternative for DJ. If he went to the right that would not have been his NPR.

14 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Thought this might be a friendly forum because most of the people I have met on the golf course we're friendly.

Nobody's been unfriendly. People are not just going to agree, though. Surely you see the difference?

As for being off topic…

 

[Rulesman]

Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. 
 - Patrick Campbell

[boogielicious]

15 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. 
 - Patrick Campbell

Only from people who don't know the rules or don't use them!

[Martyn W]

29 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Only from people who don't know the rules or don't use them!

90% of golfers, then :)

 

[iacas]

16 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. 
 - Patrick Campbell

My new favorite quote. Deal with this all the time in USKG events.

[JonMA1]

On 6/21/2016 at 10:38 AM, David in FL said:

What too many people forget, or more often simply don't understand, is that the rules don't exist to either help or hurt/penalize a player.  The rules simply tell us how to play the game.   There is no consideration of fair or unfair.  Only of equity, in that every player be treated the same, when faced with the same situation.

 

On 6/21/2016 at 11:33 AM, Slice of Life said:

Sometimes the rules help, sometimes they hurt. That's part of the beauty of the game haha. I don't blame him for one second for using the rules to his advantage.

Exactly. I don't even think about a rule being fair, unfair, helpful or detrimental. It's a rule because the USGA decided it was necessary. If I don't like it, there are plenty of other sports our there to participate in.

When a rule doesn't help me or it helps my opponent in a particular instance, I just accept it.

I've yet to learn a rule in golf that doesn't have at least some logic attached to it. And I've yet to read an argument against a rule that would clearly warrant a change.