Looking for quality shots and swing over low scores

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

People who find more joy in hitting 3-4 more solid shots (for discussions sake, let's say YOUR 85th percentile shots) more than a 3-4 shots better score are transitional. There will come a time when it will be more 'meh' than 'wow'. 

Eventually you will want the 3-4 shots lower scores as well. Over time (let's say 12-15 rounds) you will find you will not be able to sustain the same level of joy in hitting the same 3-4 good shots you did if the scores do not start reflecting your good play. YOU....JUST....WILL.

The 'score monster' will eventually get you and consume you. Spares nobody.

I remember as a rank beginner after the first 3-4 months, I would be genuinely thrilled if I lost no more than 3 balls in a late after work 9 hole round.   

Sure, the standard changes.

A good part of it is that you might be used to hitting your 9i 150 yards, and expect to but that distance off a flat lie and no wind.

The standard for good shot is very much handicap dependent for the very reasons you described.

For example, as a 9.3 HC I expect to make more good shots than 4, but if I shoot an 85 my feeling is that I only made 4 good shots and the rest sucked. You were even better than me not too long ago, how do you feel about shooting 85? Not good, I suspect. . .

[Jeremie Boop]

19 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not sure what you mean? The context was that he was implying that his best shots were good by any standard. I think that's incorrect.

So, if you disagree with that, then I have no idea what you are thinking?

So, if some my best shots are say, inside of 10 feet from around 150-175 yards *just off my head as I've had a couple of those recently* you would say it's incorrect to say my best shots are good by any standard? Because the PGA stats disagree with you.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.338.html

Those stats show that on average Pros aren't even inside of 20 feet.

Heck, even scrambling numbers at 30+ yards show that most Pros barely average better than 10 feet.

So, inside of 10 feet from anything over 30 yards sure sounds like a good shot by any standard...

 

[GolfLug]

24 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sure, the standard changes.

A good part of it is that you might be used to hitting your 9i 150 yards, and expect to but that distance off a flat lie and no wind.

The standard for good shot is very much handicap dependent for that reason.

Well, my point is the standard change will be that if you are hitting good shots by your standard, eventually you will be more 'score centric' than 'shot quality centric'. It won't go from you expecting 3-4 good shots to 6-7 good shots (the 150yard 9i type) without you expecting the scores to reflect the improvement (that the score will improve by quite a few shots anyway is not the point of discussion).  

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

At this stage of my life (60 years old) I have the lowest handicap I've ever had.  I do practice, but my practice is primarily aimed at maintaining the good habits I've developed, not to change the swing I currently have.  My improvement over the last few years is primarily from becoming more consistent, and that's what I continue to work on.  I know much of the focus at TST is on instruction and improvement, but there are lots and lots of golfers, at all levels, who aren't actively working on making changes, and many of us still manage to enjoy the game.  

 

Yupp. And BTW, @DaveP043 is no slouch with quality shots. I (per my current level) would be thrilled if I can sustain the quality of shot making he consistently does. The thing is I can hit all the shots he can. He just hits more of them. The big reason is he has a higher functioning ball striking swing at the heart. It is ALL reflected in the scores. And yes, that is the focus of my improvement.  

Over time you realize the good shot making is about reducing dispersion of your shots (the authors of LSW will agree). Absolutely what is required to improve scores. Score is not just a number but also indicator of the quality of shots and how many of them.

Score is king (well, GIR too, but ya know..:-)) 

[Dave2512]

27 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 how do you feel about shooting 85? Not good, I suspect. . .

Not directed at me but I'll tell you how I feel, the same as I do when I shoot 78 or whatever. That would be the upper end of my last 20 at any given time but 85 isn't a disaster day or anything my average is 80.9. It's certainly within my usual expectation and every day can't be a good day.

That's cool thing about golf it's rarely the same thing. I like to be in the fight and a good shot is everything from a kick in chip to save bogey to a flushed approach. My impression reading the pro good shot posts are some are chasing not just good shots but the wow moments as a substitute for trying to score better and IMO a good shot is one that leads to scoring as well as possible. I don't care if I hit a great drive and follow it with a chunk, there is no joy in that it's a wasted opportunity unless you recover from it. I game plan to maximize good shots and not make bad shots worse.

[GolfLug]

23 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Not directed at me but I'll tell you how I feel, the same as I do when I shoot 78 or whatever. That would be the upper end of my last 20 at any given time but 85 isn't a disaster day or anything my average is 80.9. It's certainly within my usual expectation and every day can't be a good day.

That's cool thing about golf it's rarely the same thing. I like to be in the fight and a good shot is everything from a kick in chip to save bogey to a flushed approach. My impression reading the pro good shot posts are some are chasing not just good shots but the wow moments as a substitute for trying to score better and IMO a good shot is one that leads to scoring as well as possible. I don't care if I hit a great drive and follow it with a chunk, there is no joy in that it's a wasted opportunity unless you recover from it. I game plan to maximize good shots and not make bad shots worse.

Agreed and in fairness, no knock on that at all. Perfectly ok to enjoy wow shots. Especially while going through a transitional phase when making changes or en-route to a sharp rise. Shots like that bridge over the rough water. It's just not the end-game.

Good post.

[14ledo81]

I think we are just arguing semantics now.

Me:  Good shot = solid, flush contact.  Ball flies well with a "tour" trajectory. (Might actually fly the green)

Some others:  Good shot = good result, close to flag, etc. (might be thinned, fatted, skulled, whatever, just ends up with a good result)

Some others:  Good shot = solid, flush contact, with a good result...  (this may be the only type of shot this person counts as "good")

[Dave2512]

Tough to say for sure but my impression was the good shot chasers are looking for an alternative way to enjoy golf not based on results. I supposed I'd want to know what they consider a bad score relative to their abilities and how not scoring well on any hole can be considered a good thing as long as there is one really good shot in the sequence. I don't hear any clubhouse banter along the lines of I know I made a snowman on #13 but that drive was awesome! Perfume on a pig.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

Tough to say for sure but my impression was the good shot chasers are looking for an alternative way to enjoy golf not based on results. I supposed I'd want to know what they consider a bad score relative to their abilities and how not scoring well on any hole can be considered a good thing as long as there is one really good shot in the sequence. I don't hear any clubhouse banter along the lines of I know I made a snowman on #13 but that drive was awesome! Perfume on a pig.

Not sure either, but it was stated twice by the OP that hitting terrible shots but scoring well is also perfume on a pig.

I suspect the only person to disagree is Groucho. However, @Groucho Valentine's terrible shots are still likely better than any mid handicappers or higher handicaps best shots.

[Dave2512]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

Not sure either, but it was stated twice by the OP that hitting terrible shots but scoring well is also perfume on a pig.

That's kind of rare though typically a bad shot is just a bad shot. Obviously there are cart path assists, the chip in that hit the pin and drops when it would have rolled off the green, the skippie that makes it to the other side of a hazard etc. But IME it doesn't make a bad shot a good shot often just not as bad as it could have been. Poor ball striking isn't the fast track to better scores. My embarrassing shots that result in better than average scoring are as rare as the best of season drive that's 100 yards longer than my average. So infrequent the impact is minimal. The rest of the time I just play golf with the usual good and bad mix.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Well, my point is the standard change will be that if you are hitting good shots by your standard, eventually you will be more 'score centric' than 'shot quality centric'. It won't go from you expecting 3-4 good shots to 6-7 good shots (the 150yard 9i type) without you expecting the scores to reflect the improvement (that the score will improve by quite a few shots anyway is not the point of discussion).  

Which point were you reinforcing?

I'm really not sure what specific item you seem to be arguing?

What my example was attempting to show was simply that the shot did not meet expectations. The answer is that let's say a 150 yard 9i is the expectation. That implies that anything short or mishit somehow could be considered a bad shot. I didn't address anything else. Yes, it's obvious that it could potentially lower the score, but might still be good enough to get near or on the green but simply not what was planned. It was still a bad shot compared to what you think you could hit based on other experiences or perhaps on the range, but maybe not so bad the score suffered? Given that your handicap a couple months ago was like a 7.6, I would think these types of shots happened to you as well? You hated them, but they "got the job done".

[Groucho Valentine]

17 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not sure either, but it was stated twice by the OP that hitting terrible shots but scoring well is also perfume on a pig.

I suspect the only person to disagree is Groucho. However, @Groucho Valentine's terrible shots are still likely better than any mid handicappers or higher handicaps best shots.

Oh i don't know about that.  

My bad shots are just as bad as anyones. I necked a drive that went about 175 yards last week that ended up in a bush on the adjacent hole.. Still nearly made a par, though. Had a 20 or so footer rim out. 

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

That's kind of rare though typically a bad shot is just a bad shot. Obviously there are cart path assists, the chip in that hit the pin and drops when it would have rolled off the green, the skippie that makes it to the other side of a hazard etc. But IME it doesn't make a bad shot a good shot often just not as bad as it could have been. Poor ball striking isn't the fast track to better scores. My embarrassing shots that result in better than average scoring are as rare as the best of season drive that's 100 yards longer than my average. So infrequent the impact is minimal. The rest of the time I just play golf with the usual good and bad mix.

No, I hit thin all the time on the course. They usually land or roll greens or roll off enough times to hate it. Do you think it feels good to hit them thin with the clubs I'm using? They suck, and I know I can hit better.

[MrFlipper]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

Tough to say for sure but my impression was the good shot chasers are looking for an alternative way to enjoy golf not based on results. I supposed I'd want to know what they consider a bad score relative to their abilities and how not scoring well on any hole can be considered a good thing as long as there is one really good shot in the sequence. I don't hear any clubhouse banter along the lines of I know I made a snowman on #13 but that drive was awesome! Perfume on a pig.

I play semi regularly with one of those guys, as an example I remember him getting an 8 on a hole with 2 OBs, the drive and his first approach. He hit the OB drive and the OB approach solidly, just pulled them 70 yards offline. Just! And he was saying stuff like "wow I hit those shots so solid, I flushed them" and I had to ask "do they count as solid shots if they are 70 yards offline?". And he said of course! For some, that's fine, but I can't consider a shot 70 yards offline as well struck. He's just kidding himself.

This is a guy that ought to shoot 85 but by the end of the day he finds a way to shoot 100. He says he doesn't care about score, just wants to hit good shots. I don't buy it, he would kill to break 80. In his case I submit he would have to change how he plays to score better, and he is unwilling to change strategy. No way would he buy into any part of LSW. Yet, his way doesn't work either, not that he will admit it.

Part of playing decent golf at any level is managing your poor shots and learning to minimize damage.  Unless you want to just stay on the range and be a Range monster (and I've been there, too, it's all good), it's not the good shots that are important, it's keeping poor shots to a minimum and finding a way to score.

[Lihu]

13 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Oh i don't know about that.  

My bad shots are just as bad as anyones. I necked a drive that went about 175 yards last week that ended up in a bush on the adjacent hole.. Still nearly made a par, though. Had a 20 or so footer rim out. 

I'm so disappointed

However, you still saved par with a 20 footer.

 

On another note, I played a guy I thought was a total novice from his drive into the trees on the first hole at my home course. He was thick in the trees, and I expected him to take at least two shots to get on. As I approached the green from the other side, I noticed another ball drop on the green, and he was cleaning off his club in the woods from behind a tree. Later I found out he was one of the lesser players on the ET. Good I didn't say anything on his "bad" drive. 

 

[Dave2512]

13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

No, I hit thin all the time on the course. They usually land or roll greens or roll off enough times to hate it. Do you think it feels good to hit them thin with the clubs I'm using? They suck, and I know I can hit better.

Thin shots are just part of the deal it's not necessarily a terrible shot. That is the reality of our skill level. At terrible shot it a shank that ricochets off the potty and hits a Coors Light  can before bouncing into a hazard. The regular ups and downs are just part of golf.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Thin shots are just part of the deal it's not necessarily a terrible shot. That is the reality of our skill level. At terrible shot it a shank that ricochets off the potty and hits a Coors Light  can before bouncing into a hazard. The regular ups and downs are just part of golf.

Okay, not terrible, but not what I'd consider good either.

 

[newtogolf]

Whatever gets you pumped about playing golf is good by me.  I may admire a nice shot I made but in the end I want to see lower scores and a lower handicap.  Sometimes a round goes so bad the only positive take away is the few good shots you made.  

[Golfingdad]

On 6/26/2016 at 4:47 PM, Valleygolfer said:

After a day of golf, although I appreciate a low score, my memories of the day are that of the few flush shots I hit during the round.

This doesn't seem all that abnormal to me.  If the two were mutually exclusive, I would certainly vote for score over quality shots.  To paraphrase Billy Hoyle in White Men Can't Jump, I'd rather look bad and win than look good and lose.  But, as many others have already pointed out, they aren't mutually exclusive.  A good shot begets a better score.

That said, taking the above line from the OP literally, I totally agree with it.  My memories from most rounds, good AND bad, are the best shots, not necessarily the holes with the best scores.  I played on Sunday and my best hole was the first hole where I had a 12" tap in birdie putt.  However, the two shots that lead to that were far from my best of the day.  The shots that I will probably remember the longest are the nice drives I hit, a couple of really solid long irons, and a 3 wood on the last hole that left me with a 40-50' eagle putt (I parred).