Jump to content
IGNORED

Player Responsibilities to Watch Others Like a Hawk


iacas
Note: This thread is 2813 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
4 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I voted to lets do away with all this BS and play golf letting the play determine outcome and not a camera.Lets keep the game about sportsmanship, honesty and integrity among the players and not a judicial ruling on every little thing.

So again:

  • Player A commits three serious breaches that, for whatever reason, nobody but A sees.
  • Player A wins by one stroke over Player B, who wasn't even in the group.
  • Player A is caught on camera doing all of these things.
  • Because it's caught on camera, A wins, B finishes second, and we're just to go about on our merry way?

Also, please keep your answer short, because it's… :offtopic: for this thread. This thread isn't about using all or any video evidence.

4 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

If your opponent is paying attention like theyre supposed to be then they can call you on a violation and then and only then should camera ruling be used.

Where in the heck is that written in the Rules of Golf?

And though you've used the word "opponent" what about a fellow competitor who likely isn't even in the same grouping with any other given player?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Where in the heck is that written in the Rules of Golf?

And though you've used the word "opponent" what about a fellow competitor who likely isn't even in the same grouping with any other given player?

On the USGA site

Quote

Golf is a game of honor. Players are expected to call penalties on themselves. The other competitors in a tournament "protect the field" by monitoring each other in a group and, at the end, place an attesting signature on a scorecard. In that vein, "peer review" is the method by which players attest to the ability of those in a club, through monitoring playing and posting of scores.

 

  • Upvote 1

Joe Paradiso

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Iacas, how was all this dealt with in the past before all this technology? Guess I thought golf was about integrity and honesty.Sorry I just think all this technology isnt good for the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
27 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

On the USGA site

That's not in the Rules of Golf. Rule 6 covers the player's responsibilities. Rule 1 says nothing at all about this. The etiquette section says only "Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

That's not at all the same as this:

38 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

If your opponent is paying attention like theyre supposed to be then they can call you on a violation and then and only then should camera ruling be used.

So I'm playing with the two of you, @newtogolf and @Aflighter. You are both 100 yards apart. How am I to "pay attention" as I am "supposed to be" doing when the two of you are 100 yards apart and, you know, I have to play my shot, too?

24 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Iacas, how was all this dealt with in the past before all this technology?

When was this point in time?

Do you not understand that rulings were made based on video at least as far back as the 1980s? That spectator testimony has been included for over a century? It's just information. You see it as "technology," and I see it as "information."

You also seem to have very, very misguided ideas about what players are "supposed" to do, and have no answer for the fact that people occasionally break a rule. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes because they don't know the rule.


Topic moved here as it's well off topic in the HD video poll thread.

  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

It's my opinion that if one or more players developed a reputation for calling other players on their infractions, they would be unceremoniously drummed out of the game. 

In My Bag:
A whole bunch of Tour Edge golf stuff...... :beer:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Of course you cant walk side by side holding hands as each other hit their shots but when your  in the same vicinity you should be watching your opponent play their shot. I know if your more than 10-20 yards away you cant see if someone is grounding a club but thats when you gotta trust the other guy or gal isnt  a cheater.How many times are you really that far away from each other.Im all about the rules and  obide them but that bunker penalty was rediculous.Maybe the rule is the problem to me because she didnt gain any advantage from that grain  sand touching a small portion of her club.Wasn't even a centimeter of the sole.I do have  question as I have been told in tournament play about grounding in a hazard.If im in a hazard with deep grass, I know I cant ground club but my club can touch the long blades of grass pointing up, right? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


It is my opinion that if a player purposely cheating was ever caught by an opponent of fellow competitor, regardless of whether he had gotten away with it many times before, his reputation would be permanently tarnished and he'd be labeled as a cheater, and for professionals at least, it would be the end of his career.  That in itself is a deterrent and make the "I can't be monitoring players from 50 yards away" argument moot. Sure, you won't catch every infraction, but all you need is being able to catch one, over time.

  • Upvote 1

Philippe

:callaway: Maverick Driver, 3W, 5W Big Bertha 
:mizuno: JPX 900 Forged 4-GW
:mizuno:  T7 55-09 and 60-10 forged wedges,
:odyssey: #7 putter (Slim 3.0 grip)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
2 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Of course you cant walk side by side holding hands as each other hit their shots but when your  in the same vicinity you should be watching your opponent play their shot.

Cool. So what if you're not?

The only real responsibility is to play the game honorably yourself. You're under no obligation to really do much at all to watch your FCs like a hawk. None. You have a slight duty to "protect the field," but even that is a very grey area, because you have to worry about your own game first.

Players are under no real obligation to watch others. That duty belongs to the player himself, and occasionally, whether by cheating intentionally or just a lack of knowledge, they fail at that and break a rule.

You still have never answered my question about a competitor breaking obvious rules and the only evidence of it being caught on a TV camera. What then? We just discard it because it's caught on "technology"? How is that any different than a credible group of spectators all saying "well, he did this, and then this, then this…".

2 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Im all about the rules and  obide them but that bunker penalty was rediculous.

Those statements conflict. It was clearly a breach of the rules as currently written, and it wasn't the type of penalty that Brittany Lang could have seen even if she had been watching Anna to make sure she didn't break any rules.

2 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Maybe the rule is the problem to me because she didnt gain any advantage from that grain  sand touching a small portion of her club.

This topic is also not about whether an advantage was gained in that instance. If you were familiar with the Rules of Golf to the level you seem to believe yourself to be, you'd know it's not about the advantage gained in any one particular instance, but the maximum advantage gained in any possible instance.

2 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I do have  question as I have been told in tournament play about grounding in a hazard.If im in a hazard with deep grass, I know I cant ground club but my club can touch the long blades of grass pointing up, right? 

Also not the topic here. I started this thread to prevent the other from being derailed with OT comments, but I'm not going to keep spawning new threads endlessly.

Again, you said "If your opponent is paying attention like they're supposed to be then they can call you on a violation and then and only then should camera ruling be used." So you start with a false statement and go on from there… Could we please try to stick to this area or region of the discussion?

 

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I get what your saying, I really do.If she had grounded that club to the point where she knew it was touching and then went on as nothing happened then she should get worse than  2 stroke penalty possibly DQ.The penalty didnt fit the incident "To me".In this day and time where everything is examined on tv this will continue to happen.Were just discussing all this, no big deal.She doesnt seem to be upset over it so why should we.It just ruined a good playoff that was over before they got to green.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, iacas said:

That's not in the Rules of Golf. Rule 6 covers the player's responsibilities. Rule 1 says nothing at all about this. The etiquette section says only "Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

That's not at all the same as this:

So I'm playing with the two of you, @newtogolf and @Aflighter. You are both 100 yards apart. How am I to "pay attention" as I am "supposed to be" doing when the two of you are 100 yards apart and, you know, I have to play my shot, too?

When was this point in time?

Do you not understand that rulings were made based on video at least as far back as the 1980s? That spectator testimony has been included for over a century? It's just information. You see it as "technology," and I see it as "information."

You also seem to have very, very misguided ideas about what players are "supposed" to do, and have no answer for the fact that people occasionally break a rule. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes because they don't know the rule.


Topic moved here as it's well off topic in the HD video poll thread.

So since it's not in the ROG, players have no obligation as per the rules to protect the field?  

Joe Paradiso

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
50 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

If she had grounded that club to the point where she knew it was touching and then went on as nothing happened then she should get worse than  2 stroke penalty possibly DQ.

Huh? Now she gets a DQ? So where is the point from which, in your mind, she gets a DQ and where she gets no penalty? What zone exists in which she just gets a two-stroke penalty? Only if she calls it on herself? Any other situation, and she either gets nothing or DQed?

50 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

The penalty didnt fit the incident "To me".

Please read what I write.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This topic is also not about whether an advantage was gained in that instance … it's not about the advantage gained in any one particular instance, but the maximum advantage gained in any possible instance.

Most people would probably say that wasn't worth two strokes. I'd agree… except that's not a reasonable way to create or enforce rules.

50 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

In this day and time where everything is examined on tv this will continue to happen.

Good! I prefer that golf is played closest to "right" and not to discard information simply because of how the information was obtained. (With a small caveat for the HD thread and extending 18/4).

50 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Were just discussing all this, no big deal.She doesnt seem to be upset over it so why should we.It just ruined a good playoff that was over before they got to green.

Anna committed a penalty. Should you not say she ruined the playoff?

42 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

So since it's not in the ROG, players have no obligation as per the rules to protect the field?  

Please show me where in the Rules of Golf it says that I'm obligated to watch other players hit all of their strokes to catch rules infractions.

Players have no obligation to watch their fellow players. That responsibility applies only to themselves, and is written here:

Quote

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

It does not say:

Quote

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on players watching others for rules infractions to protect the field and to ensure everyone abides by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

The responsibility is with the player himself, not with policing other players. You're responsible for your actions, not the actions taken by others.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, Patch said:

It's my opinion that if one or more players developed a reputation for calling other players on their infractions, they would be unceremoniously drummed out of the game. 

I don't see anyone calling for this.  Only that in my experience a great many players, amateur and professional alike, are at best hazy on many of the rules, and totally ignorant of others.  I've played with experienced tournament players who struggle with something as relatively easy as making a correct drop when taking relief from an obstruction.

If I observe a fellow competitor about to make a mistake, I'll first try to stop him before his action incurs a penalty.  Failing that, I will bring to his attention that he has breached a rule, and if necessary, I'll inform him of what the penalty is and the proper procedure for moving on from that point.

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Players have no obligation to watch their fellow players. That responsibility applies only to themselves, and is written here:

The responsibility is with the player himself, not with policing other players. You're responsible for your actions, not the actions taken by others.

I agree that it is not the responsibility of the player to observe every action of his fellow competitor.  It is however his responsibility to the rest of the field to call an infraction which he does happen to observe.  That does not absolve each individual player of the responsibility of knowing the rules and managing his play within the boundaries set by those rules.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

I agree that it is not the responsibility of the player to observe every action of his fellow competitor.  It is however his responsibility to the rest of the field to call an infraction which he does happen to observe.  That does not absolve each individual player of the responsibility of knowing the rules and managing his play within the boundaries set by those rules.

Agreed.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I agree that it is not the responsibility of the player to observe every action of his fellow competitor.  It is however his responsibility to the rest of the field to call an infraction which he does happen to observe.  That does not absolve each individual player of the responsibility of knowing the rules and managing his play within the boundaries set by those rules.

That was my earlier question, is that an actual rule in the ROG?  

Joe Paradiso

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
10 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

That was my earlier question, is that an actual rule in the ROG?  

Players are not responsible for calling penalties on their fellow competitors, up to the point where they willingly agree to waive rules. Look at the Decisions under 1-3.

They might not know, for example, that something is a penalty. Since they didn't commit the breach, they're not penalized. It's an expectation (but so is the expectation that the player will call the penalty on himself), but not an obligation.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

That was my earlier question, is that an actual rule in the ROG?  


Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

  • Upvote 2
"Age improves with wine."
 
Wishon 919THI 11*
Wishon 925HL 4w
Wishon 335HL 3h & 4h
Wishon 755pc 5i, 6i, 7i, 8i & 9i
Tad Moore 485 PW
Callaway X 54*
Ping G2 Anser C
Callaway SuperSoft
Titleist StaDry
Kangaroo Hillcrest AB
Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, Asheville said:


Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

Thank you @Asheville

Joe Paradiso

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2813 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Popular Now

  • Posts

    • Wordle 1,014 4/6 🟨🟨⬜⬜🟨 🟩🟩⬜🟨⬜ 🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 should have thought a bit harder,,, could have been 3
    • You all are right, its not that big of an issue, I'll leave it alone, especially after looking at that picture of Tigers beat up putter. But I also noticed the small circle worn on the sweet-spot where he hits it every time, I definitely don't have one of those. Thanks for the replies   
    • Committing to one brand of ball this year - Snell MTB Prime X, the 5 doz. pack. Like how they perform for me. At $18/doz., can live with cover scuffing. Iron regripping with GolfPrice MCC+4 Teams std. in red/navy. May be retiring Odyssey Dual Force after 30 yrs. Seems like I can't get it to the hole anymore. Kind of light and has lots of toe hang. My reg. group's hounding finally wore me down.    From Callaway preowned - trying out the Odyssey Tri-Hot 5K in double wide (less toe hang) and triple wide (face balanced). Both also noticeably heavier...we shall see.  
    • WOW, it looks like he has been hitting stones with that putter to put all of those nicks into it.  I can't see how a ball would cause many those dings.
    • I'm fighting a knee as well as a foot so I "Feel your pain".  Luckily for me the PT is helping at this time and I am hoping knee surgery is not imminent.  Best of luck to you.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...