Turn that boombox down/off ... you idiot!

[Hardspoon]

On July 30, 2016 at 2:57 PM, newtogolf said:

I'm asking because Larry the Cable Guy, Kid Rock and others who listen to music have their scores shown on the leaderboard and final results.

This is the best argument ITT for not listening to music: you'd be in the same category as Larry the Cable Guy and Kid Rock. Ouch.

[JonMA1]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

They may have to endure a few bad jokes, or help look for the balls of strangers, or have to sit next to a guy who might need more deodorant, but listening to music is not a realistic expectation.

How about drunk bro's yelling at one another from across the fairway for the entire round - to the point where can hear them from several holes away? Or chasing wild turkeys with their golf carts while making gobbling noises? How about the #@^#head who decided to bring an air horn to a golf course? Or the clown who thought it would be epic to switch tee box markers around? How about the group who drive their carts anywhere even though the course has the 90° rule in effect? Then there are the cigarette butts left on putting greens, trash left just anywhere, a player giving another a hard time because he won't hit into another group.

There are so many rule and etiquette violations that the rest of us endure. Someone playing music that is barely audible to other groups seems like such a non-issue (to me). Blast your music to a ridiculous volume as the OP described, and you now belong to that special group listed in the above paragraph.

I hate listening to other's music. It happens at work, it happens in traffic, and it happens in my neighborhood. The idea that someone's musical tastes are so awesome that everyone else should be subjected to it is just maddening. If paired with someone who listened to music, I don't know what I'd do.

Certainly, we'd be within our rights to decline playing alongside anyone who plays music.  

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Yes, it's against the rules. You're breaking the rules, and as others have said, causing him to be in violation as well. Not only of the rules, but common courtesy and etiquette too.

As far as the rules, just because music is playing doesn't mean I'm listening to it. It's background noise that if the course has allowed, I have no control over it and would do my best to block out. If you are suggesting that any music overheard during a round would violate that score for HC purposes, I don't buy it. Since I had no choice in other's actions, and because I'm able to block it out (as I try to do with any background noise), I'd post my score every time. You and others may see that as a violation. I don't.

---

I'd love to go back to the time when proper golf etiquette was practiced. I just don't see enough of that where I play and it seems to be where things are headed. But because membership at a private club is not an option, I choose to put up with it.

From an etiquette standpoint... yes, please turn down the music.

[Jeremie Boop]

12 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

As far as the rules, just because music is playing doesn't mean I'm listening to it. It's background noise that if the course has allowed, I have no control over it and would do my best to block out. If you are suggesting that any music overheard during a round would violate that score for HC purposes, I don't buy it. Since I had no choice in other's actions, and because I'm able to block it out (as I try to do with any background noise), I'd post my score every time. You and others may see that as a violation. I don't.

 

This is pretty similar to the attitude of people who still post their solo rounds for handicap. Against the rules is against the rules. I'd tend to go with @iacas on whether it is or isn't because he's much better versed in the rules than I am.

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

There are so many rule and etiquette violations that the rest of us endure. Someone playing music that is barely audible to other groups seems like such a non-issue (to me). Blast your music to a ridiculous volume as the OP described, and you now belong to that special group listed in the above paragraph.

So, just because there are etiquette violations that justifies more etiquette violations? 

15 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Certainly, we'd be within our rights to decline playing alongside anyone who plays music.  

We are within our rights to tell that person to stop playing music. Maybe it should be the one playing the music who should leave the group? 

16 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

As far as the rules, just because music is playing doesn't mean I'm listening to it. It's background noise that if the course has allowed, I have no control over it and would do my best to block out. 

At some level listening is a passive action. You just can't shut off all sound. 

Just because you don't have control over it doesn't mean you are not listening to it. The rules do not make that difference. The decision on music or broadcasting states that the committee should consider all the facts. I for one do not want to have the hassle of dealing with this just because someone else is being inconsiderate by playing their music. 

Quote

Under Rule 14-3a, a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that "might assist him in making a stroke or in his play." Listening to music or a broadcast while making a stroke or for a prolonged period might assist the player in his play, for example, by eliminating distractions or promoting a good tempo. Therefore, the use of an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast, whether or not through headphones, while making a stroke or for a prolonged period of time during a stipulated round is a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 for a player to listen to a device briefly, for example, to obtain the results of another sporting event or traffic information, while walking between the putting green of one hole and the teeing ground of the next hole.

A Committee will have to consider all available facts and circumstances in determining whether a player using an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast has done so for a prolonged period such that the action might have assisted the player in his play.

There is no restriction on listening to music or other broadcasts while practicing (whether on the practice ground or on the golf course, and whether by oneself or while playing with others), although club rules and disciplinary codes could apply in such circumstances.

 

 

[DaveP043]

35 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

As far as the rules, just because music is playing doesn't mean I'm listening to it. It's background noise that if the course has allowed, I have no control over it and would do my best to block out. If you are suggesting that any music overheard during a round would violate that score for HC purposes, I don't buy it. Since I had no choice in other's actions, and because I'm able to block it out (as I try to do with any background noise), I'd post my score every time. You and others may see that as a violation. I don't.

 

18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Just because you don't have control over it doesn't mean you are not listening to it. The rules do not make that difference. The decision on music or broadcasting states that the committee should consider all the facts. I for one do not want to have the hassle of dealing with this just because someone else is being inconsiderate by playing their music. 

As far as I can tell. the rules don't prohibit a player from hearing music.  They prohibit the player from using an artificial device to listen to music "while making a stroke or for an extended time".  In the case that @JonMA1 describes, he's not using the device, someone else is.  To me, @JonMA1 hasn't violated any rules, any more than if the music was coming from off the course somewhere.

Quote

Therefore, the use of an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast, whether or not through headphones, while making a stroke or for a prolonged period of time during a stipulated round is a breach of Rule 14-3. 

[Jeremie Boop]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

As far as I can tell. the rules don't prohibit a player from hearing music.  They prohibit the player from using an artificial device to listen to music "while making a stroke or for an extended time".  In the case that @JonMA1 describes, he's not using the device, someone else is.  To me, @JonMA1 hasn't violated any rules, any more than if the music was coming from off the course somewhere.

The difference is incidental proximity via an outside source compared to a constant i.e. extended time via playing partners. Agreeing to play while they have music playing is no different than if you play it yourself. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Jeremie Boop said:

There difference incidental proximity via an outside source compared to a constant i.e. extended time via playing partners. Agreeing to play while they have music playing is no different than if you play it yourself. 

I think in a tournament situation, you'd be correct.  In fact, if they refused to turn off the music, and I'm in their group, I'd notify the appropriate person that I was playing under protest, I'd refuse to sign their card, and insist that they're choice to keep playing the music be reviewed by the Committee as a possible violation.  However, in a casual round, I probably wouldn't make a huge issue as long as it was kept reasonably quiet, and I'd feel perfectly justified in posting my score for handicap.  I'd definitely let them know that their music was a rules violation, so they'd know in the future.  That's how I've learned a lot of what I know about the rules, from someone explaining that what I'd done was wrong.

The rules also allow for some judgement.  If a player has the tunes on while driving between shots, and turns it off when its time to hit, does that constitute and "extended period"?  I don't think its completely clear from the Decision, so its up to the discretion of the Committee.

[drmevo]

19 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As far as I can tell. the rules don't prohibit a player from hearing music.  They prohibit the player from using an artificial device to listen to music "while making a stroke or for an extended time".  In the case that @JonMA1 describes, he's not using the device, someone else is.  To me, @JonMA1 hasn't violated any rules, any more than if the music was coming from off the course somewhere.

I can see both sides of the argument here.  But say you have one person playing music for the group.  Does only the one person get penalized, even if others in the group like the music and perhaps listen to it while they are playing?   

I know that for me, as a trained musician, I can't just turn off my ears and not listen.  I am going to pick up on the tempo, the chord structure, etc., even if I don't like the music or don't want to listen to it. I totally agree that hearing music from a nearby house or car or something would not constitute a violation, but I'm not sold when it comes to someone in the same group playing music for the entire round.

Edited August 2, 2016 by drmevo

[Jeremie Boop]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think in a tournament situation, you'd be correct.  In fact, if they refused to turn off the music, and I'm in their group, I'd notify the appropriate person that I was playing under protest, I'd refuse to sign their card, and insist that they're choice to keep playing the music be reviewed by the Committee as a possible violation.  However, in a casual round, I probably wouldn't make a huge issue as long as it was kept reasonably quiet, and I'd feel perfectly justified in posting my score for handicap.  I'd definitely let them know that their music was a rules violation, so they'd know in the future.  That's how I've learned a lot of what I know about the rules, from someone explaining that what I'd done was wrong.

The rules also allow for some judgement.  If a player has the tunes on while driving between shots, and turns it off when its time to hit, does that constitute and "extended period"?  I don't think its completely clear from the Decision, so its up to the discretion of the Committee.

I agree that it's not clear if not listening while taking shots matters, but it seems it does because it could have a calming or distracting effect which gives an advantage. I'm not saying I would make a big deal about it in a casual round but like you I'd mention it's against the rules but I also wouldn't post my round if they played the music unless I was completely separate from them and they turned it off/down around me. 

[drmevo]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

However, in a casual round, I probably wouldn't make a huge issue as long as it was kept reasonably quiet

3 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I'm not saying I would make a big deal about it in a casual round

Yeah, to be clear, I'm talking about this more from a hypothetical standpoint.  In practice, I would most likely not ask someone else to turn off/down their music unless it was really loud or otherwise distracting. And if I did, I would try to be as polite as possible. It's just that, if someone did ask for music to be turned off or down, I think it's a reasonable request not just in terms of etiquette but also because of the possible rules violation.

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, drmevo said:

. It's just that, if someone did ask for music to be turned off or down, I think it's a reasonable request not just in terms of etiquette but also because of the possible rules violation.

No question in my mind that its reasonable.  I've said more than once in these forums, almost every bit of golf etiquette starts form being respectful and considerate of your fellow golfers.  Turning  music  down or off is simply being considerate.

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

So, just because there are etiquette violations that justifies more etiquette violations? 

Not at all. If it were my golf course, I'd prohibit amplified music along with all the other violations. I'm just saying that if the course allows it - and I'm talking about playing it at a level where other groups can't here it - there are far worse things that are going on.

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

We are within our rights to tell that person to stop playing music. Maybe it should be the one playing the music who should leave the group?

We disagree - again if the course allows it and it sounds as though some do. Personally, I'm more of the type of person to accommodate others. Some folks are not that willing to so and are within their rights not to be.

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

At some level listening is a passive action. You just can't shut off all sound. 

Just because you don't have control over it doesn't mean you are not listening to it. The rules do not make that difference. The decision on music or broadcasting states that the committee should consider all the facts. I for one do not want to have the hassle of dealing with this just because someone else is being inconsiderate by playing their music. 

We disagree. I don't think the rule was intended for what I've described and I don't believe the rule ever took into consideration that clubs would allow it at all.

Now If you're talking about agreeing to play with a group who is listening and you have a reasonable choice, I'll concede your point it shouldn't be posted. Otherwise, it's just noise I have no control over and I'm posting the round.

---

Again, we're talking about golf courses that allow and even accommodate others to play amplified music. Listening to ear buds isn't the same.

[JonMA1]

4 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

This is pretty similar to the attitude of people who still post their solo rounds for handicap. Against the rules is against the rules. I'd tend to go with @iacas on whether it is or isn't because he's much better versed in the rules than I am.

Sorry I should have multi quoted on this.

I disagree Jeremie.

Posting a solo round is black and white against the rules. Choosing to play a radio and than posting that round is black and white against the rules.

Defining "listening" as another group blasting music, or not having a choice in riding with some one playing music is not as black and white, IMO. It's pretty easy for me to tune that out.

As mentioned in my other post, I don't think that's what the rule was intended for and I think a rules committee who understood the circumstances I've described would not rule it as a violation for another player to post the round.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Sorry I should have multi quoted on this.

I disagree Jeremie.

Posting a solo round is black and white against the rules. Choosing to play a radio and than posting that round is black and white against the rules.

Defining "listening" as another group blasting music, or not having a choice in riding with some one playing music is not as black and white, IMO. It's pretty easy for me to tune that out.

As mentioned in my other post, I don't think that's what the rule was intended for and I think a rules committee who understood the circumstances I've described would not rule it as a violation for another player to post the round.

You say easy for you to tune it out - that doesn't mean that it's easy for me, or for JeremieB to tune it out.  That's even more true when it's some crappy rap or twangy country stuff - don't care much for classical either.  In that case it's more than just white noise, it's an irritant, like having a sand burr in your skivvies.  It just keeps chafing, and it destroys any possibility for me of focusing on my game.

[MrFlipper]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Sorry I should have multi quoted on this.

I disagree Jeremie.

Posting a solo round is black and white against the rules. Choosing to play a radio and than posting that round is black and white against the rules.

Defining "listening" as another group blasting music, or not having a choice in riding with some one playing music is not as black and white, IMO. It's pretty easy for me to tune that out.

As mentioned in my other post, I don't think that's what the rule was intended for and I think a rules committee who understood the circumstances I've described would not rule it as a violation for another player to post the round.

I agree with you.

I can remember many years ago a tour pro (Richard Zokol?) wore ear buds to listen to music to relax while he played in tournaments. That practice is what the rules forbid, whether buds or speakers. Someone purposely using music to improve their game.

So I am walking on the course and I can hear music from a pool party for three holes? Or I am playing golf next to a music festival and I hear music all day? That music, which I have no control over, makes my play illegal and the score not postable? I sure don't think so. I could ask them to turn the music down but I doubt it would happen...

Folks may find the music annoying, but that's all it is, an annoyance at most. Me, I'm used to people rattling change, using the ball washer and talking while I hit, so music is just one more thing I don't pay attention to. Gotta rise above that stuff.

[Elrey Desol]

just a data point that seems germane to this thread (and a few others recently):

- went out as a single yesterday. starter made a point of slow-walking me to the first tee so i could be paired with someone before heading out.

- got paired with two guys, both semi-retired, who were very nice.

- going up the first fairway, we discussed how seriously we planned on taking the round, playing "ready golf" and the like (we were on the same page).

- they asked me if i minded if they smoked (one a cigar, the other cigarettes) and i said "go ahead". (i am pretty sensitive to the smell of smoke)

- i asked if they minded if i played some music, and they said "go ahead" (which i played a a low volume, between holes and going to between shots, on a bluetooth speaker)

- the taller of the two fellows like to talk - a lot - and often did so in his partner's backswing.

- he also critiqued my swing and offered numerous, unsolicited, suggestions throughout the round. he also made a point to look at every club in my bag, and comment on all of them.

we all had fun and shook hands on 18.

[rkim291968]

To summarize:

If you are playing music at a level that others can't hear it ---> OK.

If you ask if it is ok to play music and others agree ---> OK.

If you ask and the others object, but you don't oblige or expect the others to play at another spot so that they can't hear your music --->  That is not OK.  It's a self centered act not to mention being rude.  If everyone in your group is fine with you playing loud music, that's fine.  Knock yourself out.   But when you approach other groups, be mindful of invading their golf round.  

[DaveP043]

23 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

I can remember many years ago a tour pro (Richard Zokol?) wore ear buds to listen to music to relax while he played in tournaments. That practice is what the rules forbid, whether buds or speakers. Someone purposely using music to improve their game.

This rang a bell in my brain, so I had to investigate a little more.  Zokol did indeed wear earbuds to play music on a Walkman, for a year or so, and found it to be helpful.  If what I've read elsewhere on the interweb can be believed (no guarantees), the decision which prohibits using an artificial device to play music first appeared in 2012.

And I'm in total agreement with @rkim291968 above.  Your music is a potential intrusion on other's enjoyment of golf, and its against the rules.  In an informal round, if you keep it at an appropriate volume, or turn it off when appropriate, if your playing partners don't mind, I'm OK with it.  In a competition, I'll make sure its off.  If you miss your music enough that it hurts your play, well you should never have been listening to it while you play informally anyway.