Heartrate Monitors Against Rules of Golf

[SG11118]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

when was the pocket watch invented = 1524

Oops - I inadvertently pulled the 1770 number as when the first self-winding mechanism for pocket watches was invented. 

[Rulesman]

On 10/11/2016 at 2:14 PM, iacas said:

That's not to say that heart rate monitors (remember, you can wear them, so long as you don't access the information during the round - you can review your round after you're done playing, for example) won't be made legal in the future, but for now… it makes sense to me that they're not and why they're not.

 

The R&A have confirmed this.

The position is that a player is permitted to wear such a monitor during a round, but only to record changes.  If he were to use the information during the round, he would be in breach of 14-3, as it might affect his play

[iacas]

On 10/14/2016 at 10:37 AM, Rulesman said:

The R&A have confirmed this.

The position is that a player is permitted to wear such a monitor during a round, but only to record changes.  If he were to use the information during the round, he would be in breach of 14-3, as it might affect his play

Thanks.

The USGA/R&A are, as you all know, pretty much always on the same page with how the rules are interpreted once they're published.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 10/4/2016 at 5:02 PM, jamo said:

The wind and weather could be another analogy. You can toss some grass up and get a decent idea of the wind speed, and you can obviously see and feel what the weather is, but you can't use a device that tells you the wind and weather. Similarly, you could put your finger on your wrist and take your own pulse, but you can't use a device that tells it to you. 

Yes! Next thing you know, we'll have teams of people trudging along behind pro golfers carrying anemometers!

[klund]

On 10/14/2016 at 10:37 PM, Rulesman said:

The R&A have confirmed this.

The position is that a player is permitted to wear such a monitor during a round, but only to record changes.  If he were to use the information during the round, he would be in breach of 14-3, as it might affect his play

This is what i need.

Playing CC this weekend and want to track my walking so i will just remove the HR from the display.

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, klund said:

This is what i need.

Playing CC this weekend and want to track my walking so i will just remove the HR from the display.

That's all you need, yeah.

[Rulesman]

A little more from the R&A after some discussions.

The outcome of this discussion is that it would be permissible for someone to check a heart rate monitor and use this information during play for medical reasons under Exception 1 to Rule 14-3.  Therefore, the Committee in charge would have to approve the use of it under this Exception. 

[iacas]

On 11/7/2016 at 4:23 AM, Rulesman said:

A little more from the R&A after some discussions.

The outcome of this discussion is that it would be permissible for someone to check a heart rate monitor and use this information during play for medical reasons under Exception 1 to Rule 14-3.  Therefore, the Committee in charge would have to approve the use of it under this Exception. 

For all things like this, yes, that applies.

You can't wear a brace on the back of your left hand that prevents your left wrist from cupping… unless medically, it's necessary.

The medical "need" for this would be limited to special cases. Most of the time, checking your heart rate with a FitBit or a smart watch or something mid-round is a violation of the Rules.

Counting your pulse with a watch is not.

Just as you can throw grass in the air to see the wind direction, but you cannot mount a weather vane to your 7-iron and hoist it in the air prior to each shot.

[DeadMan]

Quick follow up on this - a FitBit that does not have a heart rate function is fine right? I.e., I'm fine to look at how many steps I take while golfing?

Related question - any idea if the USGA are going to have a decision on this? I guess they're taking the position that heart rate monitors can assist a golfer in his play, otherwise Rule 14-3 wouldn't be implicated. I think I agree with that for heart rate monitors, but I can also see the argument on the other side. The USGA clearly have decided based on what @iacas said in this thread, but it's ambiguous enough to me that I would really have trouble penalizing someone who wasn't warned beforehand on this stuff. Doubly so without a decision on point.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Quick follow up on this - a FitBit that does not have a heart rate function is fine right? I.e., I'm fine to look at how many steps I take while golfing?

I believe so. How many steps you've taken is unlikely to influence your play.

I can wear an Apple Watch under the Rules of Golf if its default display does not show heart rate information, for example, and so long as I don't access that information during the round. (An Apple Watch is useful because I have a timer defaulted to five minutes for ball searches.)

8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Related question - any idea if the USGA are going to have a decision on this? I guess they're taking the position that heart rate monitors can assist a golfer in his play, otherwise Rule 14-3 wouldn't be implicated. I think I agree with that for heart rate monitors, but I can also see the argument on the other side. The USGA clearly have decided based on what @iacas said in this thread, but it's ambiguous enough to me that I would really have trouble penalizing someone who wasn't warned beforehand on this stuff. Doubly so without a decision on point.

I don't think they need a decision. It's an artificial device that can influence your play. I think what they have in 14-3 and the related decisions covers this already.

[DeadMan]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I believe so. How many steps you've taken is unlikely to influence your play.

I can wear an Apple Watch under the Rules of Golf if its default display does not show heart rate information, for example, and so long as I don't access that information during the round. (An Apple Watch is useful because I have a timer defaulted to five minutes for ball searches.)

Cool, thanks.

Quote

I don't think they need a decision. It's an artificial device that can influence your play. I think what they have in 14-3 and the related decisions covers this already.

I think there's enough gray area here that a decision would be a good idea. Rule 14-3 only prohibits the use of artificial devices "that might assist [the player] in making a stroke or his play" or "for the purpose of gauging or measuring distances or conditions that might affect [the player's] play." I think there's enough of an argument on the other side that knowing your heart rate precisely doesn't assist your play that they should clarify. Especially since you can figure out your heart rate in other ways. I know that's not really relevant to the rule here. But I could see how someone would not get how using a heart rate monitor would be an issue, given that it's easy to find out in other ways.

Given that a few other people who are pretty good with the rules here came out on the other side on this issue, it's probably a good topic for a decision.

Really, in the end, neither here nor there, though. 

[iacas]

Just now, DeadMan said:

I think there's enough gray area here that a decision would be a good idea. Rule 14-3 only prohibits the use of artificial devices "that might assist [the player] in making a stroke or his play" or "for the purpose of gauging or measuring distances or conditions that might affect [the player's] play."

That right there is the part that does it.

Just now, DeadMan said:

I think there's enough of an argument on the other side that knowing your heart rate precisely doesn't assist your play that they should clarify.

Then what's the point in checking it? It's the same idea with, say, wearing a FocusBand during play and checking the results during play. Are you focusing properly?

These grey areas in the rules exist only if you think that the USGA should list out all the types of things. Then you'd have a situation where, say, there's a Decision that says that a heart rate monitor is illegal, but what about a blood pressure monitor? So you'd need a Decision for that, then.

Also, the bold above says "might" assist the player. That means that even if he can honestly say it didn't affect his play, the chance that it could have makes it illegal.

Just now, DeadMan said:

Especially since you can figure out your heart rate in other ways.

You're welcome to do those things. That's not using an artificial device in an unapproved way (using a watch to tell time is allowed).

I get that it seems like two sides of the same coin, but it's pretty consistent in this way throughout the Rules, and particularly with stuff like this. You can use a string to tie something to your bag, but you can't use it to measure wind speed or anything. You can use your watch to tell time, but you can't use it to beep in a cadence to help you with your putting. You can even use your phone to call your wife and tell her you'll be late as you're playing extra holes, but can't call your coach to ask for advice.

Just now, DeadMan said:

I know that's not really relevant to the rule here. But I could see how someone would not get how using a heart rate monitor would be an issue, given that it's easy to find out in other ways.

See above. At the end of the day, it's an artificial device that might assist a player in his play, and it falls outside of the normal accepted things like "clothes" or a "glove" or even "sunglasses" and whatnot. Sunglasses with lines on them to help you align, btw, are also illegal.

Just now, DeadMan said:

Given that a few other people who are pretty good with the rules here came out on the other side on this issue, it's probably a good topic for a decision.

I agree it's good for discussion. We discussed it not too long ago in another thread.

[DeadMan]

Jeez, this lawyer needs to parse the language better. I didn't even think about the word "might" in all that. Duh. That definitely makes a lot less of a grey area. Thanks, @iacas.

[Hatchman]

On 11/7/2016 at 4:23 AM, Rulesman said:

A little more from the R&A after some discussions.

The outcome of this discussion is that it would be permissible for someone to check a heart rate monitor and use this information during play for medical reasons under Exception 1 to Rule 14-3.  Therefore, the Committee in charge would have to approve the use of it under this Exception. 

 

"During an arrhythmia, the heart can beat too fast, too slow, or with an irregular rhythm. A heartbeat that is too fast is called tachycardia (TAK-ih-KAR-de-ah). A heartbeat that is too slow is called bradycardia (bray-de-KAR-de-ah). Most arrhythmias are harmless, but some can be serious or even life threatening."

Agree.  Some players wear monitors.  Medication, cauterization, and/or a pace maker may also apply.  As in other sports.  Why not, a PVC run can cause serious health concern or worse.

[iacas]

Brief update from John van der Borght:

Quote

In order to be in breach of the Rule, you must be using the watch in a way that breaches this. Two examples:

1. I walk up a steep hill and wonder how that affected my heart rate so I look at it out of curiosity.
2. I walk up a steep hill and want to make sure my heart rate has come back down before I play my next stroke.

#1 is not a breach, #2 is. In the first example I'm not using it to reduce the need for judgment, but in the second I am. This is like other examples in the Rule such as listening to music just to pass the time vs. listening to help my tempo.

[billchao]

Quote

In order to be in breach of the Rule, you must be using the watch in a way that breaches this. Two examples:

1. I walk up a steep hill and wonder how that affected my heart rate so I look at it out of curiosity.
2. I walk up a steep hill and want to make sure my heart rate has come back down before I play my next stroke.

#1 is not a breach, #2 is. In the first example I'm not using it to reduce the need for judgment, but in the second I am. This is like other examples in the Rule such as listening to music just to pass the time vs. listening to help my tempo.

There's kind of a dangerous spot if #1 leads to #2, though, isn't there? If I walk up a steep hill and check my heart rate out of curiosity, then decide to catch my breath a bit before playing my next stroke, can't that be interpreted as using the heart rate monitor to assist in my play even if I don't check it again to see if my heart rate has gone down?

Still feels safer just to not check it at all, barring any medical conditions.

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, billchao said:

Still feels safer just to not check it at all, barring any medical conditions.

Yep.

[CarlSpackler]

My Fitbit does have a heart rate monitor. I’m getting to be the age where I look just to make sure I haven’t died yet.