"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Classic Jim with absolute bs on this one. First, his story about observing the pros from in front while driving the ball machine is probably bs. And to claim he made a real comparison of pros hitting with closed shoulders and open shoulders and closed were ‘more powerful’ and ‘the ones winning the tournaments’ is unbelievable nonsense.

Yep.

Why measure when you can guess based on what you think your eyes see?

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

And the putting reference? Lol. Just a mess.

Ha ha ha. "You can get away with having your chest open at impact if you're a really good putter."

Pretty sure Rahm and Rory aren't too worried about their chests being open at impact. Or, you know, Tiger Woods. Or Jack. Or, well, basically any PGA Tour player.

I posted this comment:

Quote

Don January, along with well over 95% of other PGA Tour players hitting a standard shot, are not closed to the target at impact. You can see Don January's swing from the target view 16 seconds into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3BdLqOo7C8&t=16s . Typical numbers for modern PGA Tour players are 40°+ open with the hips and about 15-25° open with the chest at impact. And we can measure this very precisely with something like GEARS.

We'll see how long that lasts. That video is:

The image is:

He looks pretty open to me.

7 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I stopped about half way through...I could see him actually doing that, meaning taking the range picker thing out while the pros were hitting so he could watch their swings. But the claim that he could see which ones were hitting with "closed" versus "open" positions? That's nonsense. How does he know where they were aiming? How did he verify and measure HIS location and the orientation of his line of site to the player? The player could be way open to the start line of his shot at impact, but depending on where you are standing, he could look closed.

 

That all assumes he can instantly look for the moment of impact and at the same time note with some precision where their chest was pointing. It's hogwash.

P.S. Jim is likely not even closed in his demonstration swing! Despite aiming like 20° left of the camera, his hips are well right of the camera and we can see at least as much of his chest as we can of his back, if not more.

[Pretzel]

Without a cross-handed grip it's surprisingly difficult to keep your chest closed to the target line at impact. Turns our your right hand (for a RH golfer) has to be closer to the ball than the left, and the easiest way to do that is with a slightly open chest. Who would've thought?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Pretzel said:

Without a cross-handed grip it's surprisingly difficult to keep your chest closed to the target line at impact. Turns our your right hand (for a RH golfer) has to be closer to the ball than the left, and the easiest way to do that is with a slightly open chest. Who would've thought?

Geometry, dammit.

[GolfLug]

Interesting claim by Jim V.. Rory in his earlier days hit hard inside out push draws all day so I would expect him to be about as closed as anyone of a high pedigree. Seems much more open to me. I also think Jim is ignoring the fact that an overly closed stance is a recipe for people to roll hook or block slice with a slightest variance in impact mechanics.  

[iacas]

His reply:

Quote

Clearly January got wiser as his body got older and he had to find power with better biomechanics. Regarding your stats on tour pros, how’s the open chest game working for ya. With the time you’ve spent researching stats trying to disprove my truths, you coulda gone to the range and treated yourself to hitting shots from a position you’ve never experienced before.

I replied earlier, but my comment was removed (it included a link to the image showing that he was not even closed on his swing - there's a small chance YouTube deleted it, but if that was true, I don't think it would have allowed me to post it), so I posted again:

Quote

"Clearly" and "truths" and "better" eh? Snake oil. I don't get much time to practice or play and l'm a +2.3. I don't spend any time "researching stats to disprove" anything you say - I spend time researching the golf swing to help my students and to share with people online, while you continue to make stuff up out of thin air. You weren't even all that closed in the swing YOU demonstrated (that comment was removed), particularly given where you were aligned, and you've never engaged in an actual discussion where you're able to back up your claims with facts or evidence. Measurements are anathema to you because they'd expose your "facts" for what they are: fiction. As I've said all along - if people enjoy your golf swing and enjoy golf, that's great. But I draw the line and will push back when you attack others - other instructors, other players. I draw the line at just making stuff up.

[pganapathy]

I don't know about you guys, but I cannot play from a position and generate proper power, in any sport.  Of course I can hit the ball but I find that the rearward motion of my hands and the club/racket/bat/stick etc. really makes a huge difference to me generating power and timing

[iacas]

I'm not sure what you mean by "rearward" or how that relates to this topic.

[Big Lex]

I finally figured out what the Jim Venetos videos remind me of. 

Those late night infomercial guys of the 1990s. There were alot of them, all making these cheesy, too-good-to-be-true pitches for ways to make money easily. Those on the more legit end were real estate flipping schemes, and the more funny and questionable ones were guys like Don Lapre, who told you to place "tiny classified ads" to generate "income," and another guy who would put on these silly suits and clothes and try to get you to buy his book which listed thousands of government programs which sent you "FREE MONEY." 

[iacas]

Presenting without comment (except the thousand, or four thousand, words inherent in "a picture").

[Vinsk]

More absolute nonsense from Jim. He’s wrong on so many things it’s hard to keep track. 

[mdl]

32 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

More absolute nonsense from Jim. He’s wrong on so many things it’s hard to keep track. 

Yeah the couple times I've clicked through to his videos they've been mediocre to counterproductive. But I will say that for certain players (including, ahem, me 😬) the feel of swinging "not hard" is really important. But yeah, this guy's content is no bueno.

[ChetlovesMer]

On 1/17/2023 at 12:08 PM, Big Lex said:

I finally figured out what the Jim Venetos videos remind me of. 

Those late night infomercial guys of the 1990s. There were alot of them, all making these cheesy, too-good-to-be-true pitches for ways to make money easily. Those on the more legit end were real estate flipping schemes, and the more funny and questionable ones were guys like Don Lapre, who told you to place "tiny classified ads" to generate "income," and another guy who would put on these silly suits and clothes and try to get you to buy his book which listed thousands of government programs which sent you "FREE MONEY." 

You mean this guy?

 

[Vinsk]

One thing Jim really misses is his moronic rants on no weight shift being superior than the traditional teachings. The funny thing is Jim does shift his weight in his downswing. He just shifts from his weight forward to more forward. That shift gives him power, albeit probably not the power he always brags about. 

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Vinsk said:

More absolute nonsense from Jim. He’s wrong on so many things it’s hard to keep track. 

"Any Tour player that you hand a 48" driver to will be able to compete pretty well on the Long Drive Tour?"

Dude, no.

[dufferifick]

On 11/17/2016 at 6:11 PM, natureboy said:

Might be okay place to start for an absolute beginner just to get the feel for how the arms and wrists work and take out some moving parts initially that would be added in over time?

Seems to help a less skilled player more easily avoid a spin-out, achieve a hands ahead of the ball impact position and possibly cleaner contact, which can add some yards.

new here, again.

I'd just like to say; you gotta start somewhere and I agree.  Might as well make it simple.  As you grow, the swing will get refined......or completely lost.😪

[Vinsk]

8 hours ago, dufferifick said:

new here, again.

I'd just like to say; you gotta start somewhere and I agree.  Might as well make it simple.  As you grow, the swing will get refined......or completely lost.😪

I agree. And none of us really have had any issues with that aspect of Jim’s method. It’s his absolute disregard for science and his total lack of data to support his outrageous claims. Someone so unwilling to face up to his bs claims has no business making those claims in the first place.

[boogielicious]

15 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I agree. And none of us really have had any issues with that aspect of Jim’s method. It’s his absolute disregard for science and his total lack of data to support his outrageous claims. Someone so unwilling to face up to his bs claims has no business making those claims in the first place.

[dufferifick]

18 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I agree. And none of us really have had any issues with that aspect of Jim’s method. It’s his absolute disregard for science and his total lack of data to support his outrageous claims. Someone so unwilling to face up to his bs claims has no business making those claims in the first place.

I was just agreeing with what natureboy said.

Maybe great for beginners, not so much for people wanting more.