The Four Stages of Competence

[GolfLug]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Yeah, I was too quick in writing out what I wrote.

By "piece" that assumes you know what your priority piece (for that golf swing, which may be your "normal" golf swing) is.

If you know what the mechanics are to hit a proper flop, and you have to work on them, you're either consciously incompetent or competent depending on the shot (overall you'd probably lean one way or the other).

If you don't know, but know something's wrong, then you're unconsciously incompetent - you can hit it better and you don't know how.

Does that clear things up @GolfLug and @CarlSpackler?

Oh yeah, it was very clear from your posts. Some posts (not yours) cast too wide a net on what aspects competence is applied to and what level achieved means one is 'certified' competent.

CASE STUDY

I think this is a really important thread and I want offer myself as a case study for stage identification and see if it makes sense to you (and everybody else):

The competence piece: Shot shape.

I have singularly chased a consistent shot shape ( a soft mid flight straightish draw - all clubs) the last two years. I think this is very important to not be too broad IMO. It is not FIRs, it is not GIRs, it is not shooting in the 70s... etc. To me a having consistent shot shape will take care of broader metrics like scores.  

What qualifies competence/incompetence:  80% of ALL full swings should have the soft draw shot shape. I will take 70% gladly though as fairly competent...i.e., a measurable consistency in executing the piece.

The tool: This is where an instructor's ability to identify the correct flaw and a provide a prioritized tool is invaluable. For me it is my palm-piece * (rolling right palm open to facing sky and achieving a laid off club pic at top of backswing).

Honestly one could argue the tool itself can be the competence piece, but I feel like shot shape is a more 'measurable' piece.

Now, with competence and a measurable level of competence identified, the stage identification becomes a worthwhile exercise. I said in an earlier post I bounce between #1 and #3 but having though through I am in between #2 and #3 like many of the TST long time students here.

 

  

 

 

 

 

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Honestly one could argue the tool itself can be the competence piece, but I feel like shot shape is a more 'measurable' piece.

For you, and unless you pull-draw it and fool yourself into thinking that was success (I don't think you do - you know that's a bad shot even if the "flight" is kinda like what you're after), successfully doing your "palm piece" almost always means you'll hit the flight piece.

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

For you, and unless you pull-draw it and fool yourself into thinking that was success (I don't think you do - you know that's a bad shot even if the "flight" is kinda like what you're after), successfully doing your "palm piece" almost always means you'll hit the flight piece.

Agreed and don't want to get too far off topic, I know it very clearly that it is next to impossible for me to pull draw it as long as I lay it off at the top. Heck, has gotten to a point where I am already going 'oh-shit' half way through the downswing when I know I didn't finish laying of the club sufficiently. Very conscious but frequently incompetent.

Anyway, this could have been a post in My Swing thread, but still relevant to the conversation so hopefully not too far OT..  

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Agreed and don't want to get too far off topic, I know it very clearly that it is next to impossible for me to pull draw it as long as I lay it off at the top. Heck, has gotten to a point where I am already going 'oh-shit' half way through the downswing when I know I didn't finish laying of the club sufficiently. Very conscious but frequently incompetent.

Anyway, this could have been a post in My Swing thread, but still relevant to the conversation so hopefully not too far OT..  

Nope, you're fine.

For those listening in (errrr, reading in…), too, Vishal's feeling is palm up and laid off, but it ends up not actually being too laid off or too palm up. More than usual, due to an old injury, but not super laid off or anything extreme.

[Blackjack Don]

On 1/1/2017 at 4:06 AM, Marty2019 said:

My experience has led me to totally agree with all this.  One swing change at a time, totally ingrained and automatic, without thinking about it, before moving to the next one. 

What about someone like me? I can name about five things I am working on at the moment. I feel like the proverbial Dutch boy and the dike. I plug one hole and three more spring leaks. Then I pick one of them and lose the first one. Two more pop up. Oy!

But I've been doing this like it's a job for six months, only. As someone who has learned several things at an accelerated speed, I am familiar with this phenomenon. We know the swing has a lot of moving parts, and it isn't easy to get them all rig other four or five devoted to playing a round is very likely to say at some point "I'm getting worse!" In fact, someone who plays on Saturday might actually get worse. It's a hard thing to improve without the time and effort.

Hey, I'm with you on doing one thing at a time until it's natural, then moving on the next. But who is that advice aimed at? It isn't possible for (pick a number) 90% of amateur golfers. This is why I think instruction should be some kind of pattern to follow. Where you can work on three things for three? sessions or four or whatever. Then three more, or however many it takes to develop a good, solid, repeatable swing. Sort of like what the 5 Swing Keys was designed to do?

Keep It Simple and Specific is a the right advice, but even that isn't useful if the specific is wrong. Right? 

Too often it's easy to forget that most don't have the time, money or patient spouse to get a good swing. I'm lucky in all three.

[CarlSpackler]

4 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What about someone like me? I can name about five things I am working on at the moment. I feel like the proverbial Dutch boy and the dike. I plug one hole and three more spring leaks. Then I pick one of them and lose the first one. Two more pop up. Oy!

But I've been doing this like it's a job for six months, only. As someone who has learned several things at an accelerated speed, I am familiar with this phenomenon. We know the swing has a lot of moving parts, and it isn't easy to get them all rig other four or five devoted to playing a round is very likely to say at some point "I'm getting worse!" In fact, someone who plays on Saturday might actually get worse. It's a hard thing to improve without the time and effort.

Hey, I'm with you on doing one thing at a time until it's natural, then moving on the next. But who is that advice aimed at? It isn't possible for (pick a number) 90% of amateur golfers. This is why I think instruction should be some kind of pattern to follow. Where you can work on three things for three? sessions or four or whatever. Then three more, or however many it takes to develop a good, solid, repeatable swing. Sort of like what the 5 Swing Keys was designed to do?

Keep It Simple and Specific is a the right advice, but even that isn't useful if the specific is wrong. Right? 

Too often it's easy to forget that most don't have the time, money or patient spouse to get a good swing. I'm lucky in all three.

In the words of Yoda... "That... is why you fail."

[Blackjack Don]

Yoda didn't play golf. If he did, he'd suck at it, with some guy's hand up his bum. Quoting fictitious characters is weird, man.

:)

[CarlSpackler]

Just now, Blackjack Don said:

Yoda didn't play golf. If he did, he'd suck at it, with some guy's hand up his bum. Quoting fictitious characters is weird, man.

My point was that you are plugging one hole and another is opening BECAUSE you're working on more than one priority piece. I'm not sure this is the right thread for that discussion though. This one is more about the progression of conquering a single piece.

[Double Mocha Man]

10 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Yoda didn't play golf. If he did, he'd suck at it, with some guy's hand up his bum. Quoting fictitious characters is weird, man.

:)

What about being a fictitious character?  :)

[Blackjack Don]

I apologize for detouring the thread. This is an interesting topic and important.

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I apologize for detouring the thread. This is an interesting topic and important.

No need to apologize... I was joking in reference to Carl Spackler being a fictious character...

[Blackjack Don]

I wondered if it was an accusation or a confession.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What about someone like me? I can name about five things I am working on at the moment. I feel like the proverbial Dutch boy and the dike. I plug one hole and three more spring leaks. Then I pick one of them and lose the first one. Two more pop up. Oy!

But I've been doing this like it's a job for six months, only. As someone who has learned several things at an accelerated speed, I am familiar with this phenomenon. We know the swing has a lot of moving parts, and it isn't easy to get them all rig other four or five devoted to playing a round is very likely to say at some point "I'm getting worse!" In fact, someone who plays on Saturday might actually get worse. It's a hard thing to improve without the time and effort.

Hey, I'm with you on doing one thing at a time until it's natural, then moving on the next. But who is that advice aimed at? It isn't possible for (pick a number) 90% of amateur golfers. This is why I think instruction should be some kind of pattern to follow. Where you can work on three things for three? sessions or four or whatever. Then three more, or however many it takes to develop a good, solid, repeatable swing. Sort of like what the 5 Swing Keys was designed to do?

Keep It Simple and Specific is a the right advice, but even that isn't useful if the specific is wrong. Right? 

Too often it's easy to forget that most don't have the time, money or patient spouse to get a good swing. I'm lucky in all three.

The golf swing is pretty iterative. Unless you're a really good golfer already, we're all going through iterative changes. Fixing one thing might impact another thing that you thought was already "fixed". Then you fix that thing again until it "catches up" with everything else. It takes a lot of time to become proficient.

This will sound vaguely cliche on this site, and that's to divide and conquer. Work on priority pieces, ideally one at a time.

[Marty2019]

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What about someone like me? I can name about five things I am working on at the moment. I feel like the proverbial Dutch boy and the dike. I plug one hole and three more spring leaks. Then I pick one of them and lose the first one. Two more pop up. Oy!

But I've been doing this like it's a job for six months, only. As someone who has learned several things at an accelerated speed, I am familiar with this phenomenon. We know the swing has a lot of moving parts, and it isn't easy to get them all rig other four or five devoted to playing a round is very likely to say at some point "I'm getting worse!" In fact, someone who plays on Saturday might actually get worse. It's a hard thing to improve without the time and effort.

Hey, I'm with you on doing one thing at a time until it's natural, then moving on the next. But who is that advice aimed at? It isn't possible for (pick a number) 90% of amateur golfers. This is why I think instruction should be some kind of pattern to follow. Where you can work on three things for three? sessions or four or whatever. Then three more, or however many it takes to develop a good, solid, repeatable swing. Sort of like what the 5 Swing Keys was designed to do?

Keep It Simple and Specific is a the right advice, but even that isn't useful if the specific is wrong. Right? 

Too often it's easy to forget that most don't have the time, money or patient spouse to get a good swing. I'm lucky in all three.

I sympathize, and I would admit that I am no paragon of virtue on this.  In my case, I am aware of at least 4 things that are really wrong with my swing.   It's easy to say, I'll go to the range and just work on that one thing my instructor told me to work on, but when I actually get there, at least one of those 3 other things goes so far out of whack I absolutely must fix it to have any hope of hitting the ball solidly. 

So I wind up videoing my swing, and looking at it, and making some adjustment that has absolutely nothing to do with that "one thing."  I don't have any choice.  But I do try to eventually get back to that one thing and work on it at least some. 

It's funny, today I went to the range and was going to work on getting the club to come more from the inside instead of over the top.  For the life of me, I could not hit the ball solidly.  So I video'ed my swing, and saw that my backswing was kind of out of control.  My hands were going way too high, and I was letting the club flop over towards the target.   So I restricted my back swing and wrist hinge and tried to stay more connected.  And it worked.  I started hitting the ball much better.   Problem solved, right?   After about 20 shots, my contact with the ball deteriorated again.  So I video'ed m swing again.  I was losing control of my back swing again!  I thought I had fixed that!  So I fixed it again.  This is the kind of thing that keeps me from improving very quickly.  It's one thing after another, and some things have to be fixed over and over. 

So, anyway, yes, ideally, I would work on just that one thing until it is solidly ingrained and automatic.  Unconscious competence.   But there are so many detours and breakdowns along the way, it's hard to really stick to that idea. 

I'm like you in that I have the time, money, and patient spouse.  What I lack is athletic ability.   That's a big handicap. 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Marty2019

[Double Mocha Man]

Remember, as a kid, when you shot 2 pointers in basketball?  Or played hopscotch?  Or soared high on a rope swing?  You didn't have "shoot" keys or "hop" keys or even "swing" keys..  You just did it organically.  The more you did it the better you got.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What about someone like me? I can name about five things I am working on at the moment.

That's not a very good way to improve. 

[DwightC]

The original post just may be the very best piece of golfing advice I've ever read on the Internet.  And the discussion that follows has been awfully interesting, though perhaps a bit too verbal to be as helpful.

I have been away from golf for a few years and am dipping my toe back in the water.  Back in the day, I was real lesson junkie and reading this makes me realize that, yeah, I will certainly resume lessons, but I need to take control of the timing of them and avoid the overload of swing keys/thoughts/whatevers that are a dead giveaway for my old overthinking, too cerebral, analytically overwhelmed approach to what is, immediately, a tactile sensation and a physical result.