Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[dkolo]

On January 10, 2016 at 8:36 PM, rkim291968 said:

Today, I had another solid ball striking round.   The new swing is here to stay.   It has contributed to a significantly less number of OBs per round.   But my short game has regressed.   All the raining of late has kept me away from short game range practice.   Today's score lowered my HI to 18.4, and I have 4 more easy rounds to beat.   2.4 more points to go before escaping from bogey golfer land.

 

Nope, 14+ HI does not make a bogey golfer, @Lihu.   Sorry, buddy, but keep posting on the thread as an alumni.  

In the nicest way possible, I hope you get there! That's exciting

[No Mulligans]

Hit an 83 on a par 71 in the Palm Springs area, 9 pars, 1 birdie!  For me it's not about good shots, it's about having a round without very many horrible shots.  (I also posted this in the "Post your Game Golf Rounds" thread).

Here's the round:  http://www.gamegolf.com/player/fep/round/710262

 

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Hit an 83 on a par 71 in the Palm Springs area, 9 pars, 1 birdie!  For me it's not about good shots, it's about having a round without very many horrible shots.  (I also posted this in the "Post your Game Golf Rounds" thread).

Here's the round:  http://www.gamegolf.com/player/fep/round/710262

Nice job, Frank!

EDIT: I just looked at your other rounds there, impressive low score of 71! The course is not easy either! You won't be in this thread for long at that rate!

[rkim291968]

8 hours ago, dkolo said:

In the nicest way possible, I hope you get there! That's exciting

Thanks, @dkolo.

 

Today, I had another solid round.   HI is now trending to 18.1.   The latest swing lesson has paid its dividend.   With proper hip turn and other minor adjustments, I am hitting more consistently and my ball trajectory is looking normal.  No more high pop up like ball trajectories.  It has added a few more yards to drive distance.  

I also caught a regression in my putting form.   I was pulling every putt, trying to force a pendulum swing a little too hard.  

[No Mulligans]

On 1/12/2016 at 10:29 AM, Lihu said:

Nice job, Frank!

EDIT: I just looked at your other rounds there, impressive low score of 71! The course is not easy either! You won't be in this thread for long at that rate!

Thanks Lihu.  That 71 was on the Pebble course which is a par 55.  So that was 16 over.  I really like that course, one Par 4 the rest Par 3s but it has several par 3s at around 200 yards or more.  I played it today and got a 69, 14 over.

The 83 I posted was on the Boulder course which is a par 71 and I got a 12 over.  That was the best round of my Palm Springs 5 day vacation which is why I posted it.   The other time I played Boulder I got a 91 which included a 9 on the short par 3 17th.  Tee shot to right back off the green. Lob wedge, just too much and barely over the front fringe, rolled into the water.  Lob wedge, just quite not enough and rolled back to me and into the water.  Lob wedge and a 3 putt.    Check it out, hole 17 of my Jan. 12th round.  I had a decent round going until then.

Vacation ended with a round on Pebble this morning, I'm back at work now for the afternoon in San Diego. 

[9wood]

On 11/1/2013 at 11:38 AM, hacker101 said:

6. Keep score if you want, or just have fun.

By all means keep score. Your score lets you know whether or not you're improving

[rkim291968]

Random thoughts, questions:

• I have been scoring in a very narrow range, 93 - 95.  That's good and bad.  It's good that I have become a consistent bogey golfer.  It's bad b/c I feel I am stuck in this range.  I feel like I need to do something different to get my score moving down again.  To kick start doing something different, I am thinking about improving on 3W by removing driver from the bag.  That will force me to use 3W at least 14 times a round.   In similar vein, I am thinking about carrying a lot less number of clubs to develop my game further.  Good or bad idea?
• 2.1 points to go to fall below 16 HI.  I don't know what aspects of my game can be improved to do that.  I don't think just keep playing and practicing same stuff will get me there.  Is it time to add shot shaping again to my arsenal?   More effort to increase length off tee?
• Play more rounds or use that time to practice more?   What is the right ratio?

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, rkim291968 said:

Random thoughts, questions:

• I have been scoring in a very narrow range, 93 - 95.  That's good and bad.  It's good that I have become a consistent bogey golfer.  It's bad b/c I feel I am stuck in this range.  I feel like I need to do something different to get my score moving down again.  To kick start doing something different, I am thinking about improving on 3W by removing driver from the bag.  That will force me to use 3W at least 14 times a round.   In similar vein, I am thinking about carrying a lot less number of clubs to develop my game further.  Good or bad idea?
• 2.1 points to go to fall below 16 HI.  I don't know what aspects of my game can be improved to do that.  I don't think just keep playing and practicing same stuff will get me there.  Is it time to add shot shaping again to my arsenal?   More effort to increase length off tee?
• Play more rounds or use that time to practice more?   What is the right ratio?

I think it depends upon how you get these consistent scores. Let's say your putting is hot on one round and your approaches or driver are some other rounds, then it's a matter of getting your game "together" to improve. If you are doing the same exact things and distance is limiting you that's another issue. From what it sounds like, distance is not an issue which IIRC is  210 yards on average? This should easily be enough to play 5500-6000 yards in regulation.

http://www.pga.com/pga-and-usga-step-new-sets-tees-in-nationwide-tee-it-forward-initiative

There are 2 reasons I would question taking your driver out of your bag. The first one is that 3W off the tee allows for much more error in your swing than off the deck, but if your goal is to just get used to it first them lower the tees until you are basically hitting off the ground then that approach seems pretty sound? The second is that you will now need to play shorter courses which is maybe not a bad idea if you want to start improving your game?

Another thing you can try is to play irons only from the ladies (or shorter?) tees for a few rounds. This will get you used to playing longer irons from a shorter course. Or you can play a scrambling game with only irons on your normal length course? This could help you improve your confidence with your irons, and give you a serious appreciation for your woods and hybrid.

Just some thoughts. . .

[rkim291968]

51 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I think it depends upon how you get these consistent scores. Let's say your putting is hot on one round and your approaches or driver are some other rounds, then it's a matter of getting your game "together" to improve.

That's true (and encouraging).   Today, my driving & iron shots were good.  Short game & hybrid shots were atrocious. 

59 minutes ago, Lihu said:

There are 2 reasons I would question taking your driver out of your bag. The first one is that 3W off the tee allows for much more error in your swing than off the deck, but if your goal is to just get used to it first them lower the tees until you are basically hitting off the ground then that approach seems pretty sound? The second is that you will now need to play shorter courses which is maybe not a bad idea if you want to start improving your game?

3W is one club I cannot hit at all these days in field.  Hitting it well will come handy in number of holes at my home course, off tee & on deck.   Instead, I am hitting with 3H where 3W is more appropriate.  By temporarily removing driver, I will be forced to be more familiar with 3W in field.

[Lihu]

9 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

3W is one club I cannot hit at all these days in field.  Hitting it well will come handy in number of holes at my home course, off tee & on deck.   Instead, I am hitting with 3H where 3W is more appropriate.  By temporarily removing driver, I will be forced to be more familiar with 3W in field.

If you are proposing practice rounds on shorter courses using the 3W instead of the driver that kind of makes sense.

However, most people have more trouble hitting 3W off the deck on the course than other clubs. It's a really difficult club to hit. Seems like taking the 3W out of the bag would be a better option?

Maybe just practice 3W on the range for hundreds of shots until you get good with it? Still seems a little bit extreme for a club you might use once or twice a round?

[DrvFrShow]

@rkim291968 I'd say you need to identify what the problem is. 

* if you can't hit the 3W off the deck don't bother with it. Most amateurs don't have the swing speed to hit one well. I can't hit mine more than 160 yds carry off the deck on a fairway lie, yet I hit my 5W 205 carry off the deck. If you want a FW metalwood try a 5W @ 18.5*. You'll like it. Trust me. It's a lot easier to hit. 

The problem we bogey golfers have is pulling it together. We can have our driving and long game going, and our putting is horrid. I had a round last summer where I hit 81% FIR and had 43 putts, and my approach shots found 8 bunkers and my bunker play sucked. Then another time I had 28 putts with a great short game but my driving and long game took the scenic route. Put the best of those two rounds together and I was 3 over. But golf happens. 

So take a trip to your local friendly golf shop, and try a 5W. Chances are that if you're a bogey golfer you're not playing 7100 yd courses where you need the distance from a 3W after your drive anyway. If you have a 575 yd par 5 which is very long it will go Driver + 5W + PW or 9i.

[rkim291968]

Today, I pulled everything together for the 1st 5 holes.  I was 5 for 5 for GIRs, and made all the putts I need to make.  I was one under through the 5 holes.    The round was going so well that I thought I'd break 90 for sure, and possibly break 80.   Then, my game completely disintegrated for the final score of 96.   My putter shined (30 putts total).  SW did me in.  I lost 8 strokes trying to get out of bunkers. 

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

Today, I pulled everything together for the 1st 5 holes.  I was 5 for 5 for GIRs, and made all the putts I need to make.  I was one under through the 5 holes.    The round was going so well that I thought I'd break 90 for sure, and possibly break 80.   Then, my game completely disintegrated for the final score of 96.   My putter shined (30 putts total).  SW did me in.  I lost 8 strokes trying to get out of bunkers. 

It happens, but it's not the club. . .

Sometimes I wonder if playing easier courses until you get used to playing and scoring well might be a better strategy? At least there is some positive reinforcement when you score well even if on an easier course?

Or at tge very least easier and much shorter tees?

[Marty2019]

I managed to play 9 holes yesterday.  Classic bogey golf.  Here's what happened.

1) Par 5.  Good drive, second shot leaked a little to the right, chipped from about 20 yards, missed the 8 footer, tapped in for par.

2) Par 3.  Missed the green to the right by a few yards, chipped to 6 feet, missed the putt, bogey.

3) Par 4. Great drive, but forgot the water juts into the fairway on the right, took a drop, 3rd shot on green, 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

4) Par 4, second shot failed to take the wind into account, so I went over the green, chipped short and 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

5) All I can remember is that it was a bogey. 

6)Par 5. Cut the dogleg, laid up second shot, 3rd shot 7 feet from hole, missed the putt, tapped in for par. 

7) Par 3. Too much club.  Back of the green.  20 foot downhill putt, misread the line, missed a 5 footer, 3- putt bogey.

8) Par 4. Second shot just off the green, chipped short of the hole, two putted from 15 feet for bogey.

9) Par 4.  Drove into trees, punched out to fairway, 3rd shot just in front of green, chipped short and 2 putted for double bogey.  

Total- 44. 

Summary- missed two birdie putts of 8 feet or less, missed a par putt of 6 feet, chipped short twice, forgot where the water was once, and failed to take a strong wind into account once.  

Poor putting, poor chipping, poor course management.   That's bogey golf for me. 

 

 

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Summary- missed two birdie putts of 8 feet or less, missed a par putt of 6 feet, chipped short twice, forgot where the water was once, and failed to take a strong wind into account once.  

Poor putting, poor chipping, poor course management. That's bogey golf for me. 

Let's take a look at how accurate that assessment is.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

1) Par 5.  Good drive, second shot leaked a little to the right, chipped from about 20 yards, missed the 8 footer, tapped in for par.

Chalk this one up to a GIR which resulted in a tap-in par. Though you feel you missed a reasonable birdie putt, you were probably only 30-40% likely to make it.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

2) Par 3.  Missed the green to the right by a few yards, chipped to 6 feet, missed the putt, bogey.

You missed the green, chipped it to a spot from which you were probably about 50/50 to make/miss the putt.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

3) Par 4. Great drive, but forgot the water juts into the fairway on the right, took a drop, 3rd shot on green, 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

You took a penalty off the tee, hit the green with your approach shot, and two-putted from a place you're only going to make a putt about 5-15% of the time.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

4) Par 4, second shot failed to take the wind into account, so I went over the green, chipped short and 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

Missed the green with your approach shot, not a great chip, and again two-putted from a 5-15% make range.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

6)Par 5. Cut the dogleg, laid up second shot, 3rd shot 7 feet from hole, missed the putt, tapped in for par. 

Hit the green, tapped in for par. The putt was probably still beneath 50/50. Curious about the "laid up" details, but… for another time.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

7) Par 3. Too much club.  Back of the green.  20 foot downhill putt, misread the line, missed a 5 footer, 3- putt bogey.

Three-putted from 20 feet. Yeah, that one's on your putting.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

8) Par 4. Second shot just off the green, chipped short of the hole, two putted from 15 feet for bogey.

Missed the green, didn't hit a great chip shot. Two putt bogey.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

9) Par 4.  Drove into trees, punched out to fairway, 3rd shot just in front of green, chipped short and 2 putted for double bogey.

Drive into the trees. Wasted a shot going sideways. Missed the green again.

---

So here's how I see it. I'll highlight in red where you cost yourself strokes. I'll bold what I see as the key parts to the scoring of each hole.

Quote

 

1) Par 5. Good drive, second shot leaked a little to the right, chipped from about 20 yards, missed the 8 footer, tapped in for par.

2) Par 3. Missed the green to the right by a few yards, chipped to 6 feet, missed the putt, bogey.

3) Par 4. Great drive, but forgot the water juts into the fairway on the right, took a drop, 3rd shot on green, 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

4) Par 4, second shot failed to take the wind into account, so I went over the green, chipped short and 2 putted from 15 feet, bogey.

6)Par 5. Cut the dogleg, laid up second shot, 3rd shot 7 feet from hole, missed the putt, tapped in for par. 

7) Par 3. Too much club.  Back of the green.  20 foot downhill putt, misread the line, missed a 5 footer, 3- putt bogey.

8) Par 4. Second shot just off the green, chipped short of the hole, two putted from 15 feet for bogey.

9) Par 4.  Drove into trees, punched out to fairway, 3rd shot just in front of green, chipped short and 2 putted for double bogey.

 

Of the red shots, we have… one three-putt.

We also have two penalty shots (effectively, counting the punch-out on hole 9) and several missed greens.

Except for the three-putt, you probably weren't 50/50 or better to make most of those putts.

You asked questions about the full swing, short game, putting, etc. in another thread, @Marty2019. This kind of continues that discussion.

You lost way more strokes with the full swing than you did with the short game and putting. Had I played the course letting you hit all the full swing shots, I'd have likely hit one of the short game shots close enough to convert a two-putt into one-putt, I'd have made one more putt, and I'd have not three-putted. That's a 41, still well over par. The other five strokes are all on your full swing.

[alleztom]

Great post @iacas - agree fundamentally that hitting 3 greens & 3 near greens out of 8 is pretty standard for bogey golf and that long game accounts for most of the shots lost here

One clarifying question though - say you have a 35%, 50%, 10% and 10% putt on the first four holes - surely you expect to 'one putt' one of these. Simple maths says you'll two putt all of these about a quarter of the time, so surely there are some strokes lost here - though not enough to get you to par (your point), as even if you make all of them (by probability a 0.2% chance) you're still scoring 5 over par on an 'other worldly' putting day. How many putts would you consider 'break even' from these four putts? I'd guess just under 7.

 

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, alleztom said:

One clarifying question though - say you have a 35%, 50%, 10% and 10% putt on the first four holes - surely you expect to 'one putt' one of these. Simple maths says you'll two putt all of these about a quarter of the time, so surely there are some strokes lost here - though not enough to get you to par (your point), as even if you make all of them (by probability a 0.2% chance) you're still scoring 5 over par on an 'other worldly' putting day. How many putts would you consider 'break even' from these four putts? I'd guess just under 7.

Not really.

Every time you flip a coin it's 50%. There's no history in things like that.

Eventually, yes, people revert to the mean, but in four putts? You can get hot or cold over a spell that short, and this doesn't really qualify as either.

[alleztom]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not really.

Every time you flip a coin it's 50%. There's no history in things like that.

Eventually, yes, people revert to the mean, but in four putts? You can get hot or cold over a spell that short, and this doesn't really qualify as either.

I get that they're independent trials - but say it's 2 x 50:50 shots (say a 6' putt) I'd 'expect' to make one of them?

25% chance of 2 puts for 2 holes (2 make), 50% chance for 3 putts for 2 holes (make then miss or miss then make), 25% 4 putts for 2 holes (2 miss).

Isn't that the point of Strokes Gained - that if you get hot (make 2) you've 'gained' a stroke on the field. If you get cold (miss 2) you've 'lost' a stroke on the field, based on the premise you'd 'expect' to take three shots, assuming the field is taking the 'expected' three putts.