Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[proto]

so you think it's pointless to work more on your short game then long game? I've seen a lot of people who can drive the ball long and straight but when they hit their second shot, they end up left or right of the greens. then when they get in the bunkers they struggle or come up short or don't know how to put spin on the ball. I've played with guys who come short of the greens and their pitch shots jus rolls way to far or off the greens. seen people get in on the greens on in 2 and  ends up scoring a triple or quad because they never work on their putting. if you work on your short game more and then work on your long game you will score better because your short game is where it really matters. lets say if you hit it in the water off your tee shot you still can come out with a par or a bogey vs ending up with a triple or a double or a quad depending par your on. the only time your going to be hitting a 3i is like on a par5 or a very long par3. if you can't get your ball to stop on a green then you need to learn how to putt long. you can disagree with me all you want but short game is way more important then long game. when i got back into golf i was shooting int he high 90s and low 100s, even since i worked on 130y-100y in and around the green and putting i dropped my scores down into the 80s jus cause i worked on my weakest parts of my game. by end of the summer i was scoring in the low 80s and my best score i shot was a 76. everyone hits it in the water and woods or in the trees, even tour guys. and lets say you can drive it and your 2nd shot is 130y into the green and you come up short or go into the bunker. and your short game isn't good at all and you can get around the green in 2 but you end up with a 4 or 5 because you can't control your balls on the greens or even putt. but like i said you can disagree with me all you want. i know what worked for me and this thread was wanting to know how he or she was able to break 100s and 90s

[Lihu]

46 minutes ago, klineka said:

Pretty interesting stat about this, the top two current FedEx Points players, Hideki Matsuyama and Justin Thomas rank 201 and 199, respectively, in GIR % from 100-125 yds, with both of them being around 62-63%.I would have guess those would have been much much higher. Interesting.

 

Although their GIR % inside 100 yds jumps up to 94% for Justin Thomas and 89% for Matsuyama.

 

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.077.html

Alas, yes. Unfortunately, golf is a game of distance. The longer and straighter you hit, the lower your scores. . .

 

42 minutes ago, proto said:

so you think it's pointless to work more on your short game then long game? I've seen a lot of people who can drive the ball long and straight but when they hit their second shot, they end up left or right of the greens. then when they get in the bunkers they struggle or come up short or don't know how to put spin on the ball. I've played with guys who come short of the greens and their pitch shots jus rolls way to far or off the greens. seen people get in on the greens on in 2 and  ends up scoring a triple or quad because they never work on their putting. if you work on your short game more and then work on your long game you will score better because your short game is where it really matters. lets say if you hit it in the water off your tee shot you still can come out with a par or a bogey vs ending up with a triple or a double or a quad depending par your on. the only time your going to be hitting a 3i is like on a par5 or a very long par3. if you can't get your ball to stop on a green then you need to learn how to putt long. you can disagree with me all you want but short game is way more important then long game. when i got back into golf i was shooting int he high 90s and low 100s, even since i worked on 130y-100y in and around the green and putting i dropped my scores down into the 80s jus cause i worked on my weakest parts of my game. by end of the summer i was scoring in the low 80s and my best score i shot was a 76. everyone hits it in the water and woods or in the trees, even tour guys. and lets say you can drive it and your 2nd shot is 130y into the green and you come up short or go into the bunker. and your short game isn't good at all and you can get around the green in 2 but you end up with a 4 or 5 because you can't control your balls on the greens or even putt. but like i said you can disagree with me all you want. i know what worked for me and this thread was wanting to know how he or she was able to break 100s and 90s

Not at all, but there's only so much you can do to improve your scores with short game. Also, most people include approach shots as long game as well. So, if you mean work on that, then we agree as well.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, proto said:

so you think it's pointless to work more on your short game then long game? 

if you work on your short game more and then work on your long game you will score better because your short game is where it really matters. 

 

when i got back into golf i was shooting int he high 90s and low 100s, even since i worked on 130y-100y in and around the green and putting i dropped my scores down into the 80s jus cause i worked on my weakest parts of my game. by end of the summer i was scoring in the low 80s and my best score i shot was a 76.

 

and lets say you can drive it and your 2nd shot is 130y into the green and you come up short or go into the bunker. and your short game isn't good at all and you can get around the green in 2 but you end up with a 4 or 5 because you can't control your balls on the greens or even putt.  

 

so you think it's pointless to work more on your short game then long game? I never said it is pointless to work on the short game. What I am saying is that the numbers regarding strokes gained and such agree that more strokes can be saved by improving tee shots/long game compared to short game. 

 

if you work on your short game more and then work on your long game you will score better because your short game is where it really matters. This thread with over 30 pages of great information backed up by statistics seems to disagree with you 

just cause i worked on my weakest parts of my game.  If your short game is a glaring weakness relative to your long game, then of course working on the weakest parts of YOUR game benefited you the most

 

and lets say you can drive it and your 2nd shot is 130y into the green and you come up short or go into the bunker. and your short game isn't good at all and you can get around the green in 2 but you end up with a 4 or 5 because you can't control your balls on the greens or even putt.  Most golfers (even pro) are happy if they are around the green in 2 and end up with a 4.....  by you saying "lets say you can drive it" you are assuming that high handicap golfers (target audience of this thread) are able to drive it in play and consistently enough to leave themselves 130yds into the green, which simply isnt the case. Even on a short 375yd par 4, that would require a 245 drive, back that to 400 yds, and now that requires a 270 yd drive, which the majority of golfers, lets alone high handicap golfers, aren't capable of hitting.

Now lets say you CANT drive it, so your 2nd shot is 200y into the green from the rough and through some trees. That is a much worse situation to be in, and more often than not, that approach from 130 yds is going to be much closer to the green than that shot from the rough at 200 yds is, regardless of how good or bad your short game is.

Edited February 23, 2017 by klineka

[PingLuvR]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

I kind of disagree with these, I think someone trying to break 100, or even 90, the last thing they need to be worrying about is trying to get spin out of a bunker. I disagree that if the short game is on point then the long game is easier to learn. How good someone can chip or putt has very little to do with how easy it will be for that person to learn how to hit a driver or 3 iron. There have been tons of posts on this site showing how important tee/long shots are for high handicap golfers. Yes approach shots and short game are important, but they mean very little if the golfer has already put one tee shot in the water and one in the woods.

Same here.  Getting off the tee is critical for me. 

[PingLuvR]

Had lesson #2 tonight.  My hips aren't rotating at impact.  Lesson #1 we worked on take away (too flat) and swing plane (OTT).  Those are much better.   

[iacas]

On 2/23/2017 at 2:37 PM, klineka said:

Pretty interesting stat about this, the top two current FedEx Points players, Hideki Matsuyama and Justin Thomas rank 201 and 199, respectively, in GIR % from 100-125 yds, with both of them being around 62-63%.I would have guess those would have been much much higher. Interesting.

Small sample sizes. They only have about 30 attempts so far, and we don't know how many fringes they've hit, or how many times Sean O'Hair (26 of 26 for 100%) hit it to 30 feet but on the green, etc.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

so you think it's pointless to work more on your short game then long game?

I don't know who you're talking to, @proto, but I really recommend you read this topic:

Practicing your short game more than your full swing is, generally speaking, a poor use of time.

The short game matters significantly less than the full swing.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

I've seen a lot of people who can drive the ball long and straight but when they hit their second shot, they end up left or right of the greens.

Those golfers should look to improve their iron play, then.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

seen people get in on the greens on in 2 and  ends up scoring a triple or quad because they never work on their putting.

Really? You see people - often enough to comment - who take five or six putts? C'mon…

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

if you work on your short game more and then work on your long game you will score better because your short game is where it really matters.

That's precisely backward.

And I almost never work on my putting or short game.

I hope you'll understand that I'm being direct (and quick) about this because I've had to elaborate on this and talk about this and demonstrate all of this a few hundred (thousand?) times. There's ample evidence out there to support everything I'm saying. Including a book I wrote, LSW.

If you care about golf, your scores, and your game, please be open-minded. The things you're saying are myths.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

lets say if you hit it in the water off your tee shot you still can come out with a par or a bogey vs ending up with a triple or a double or a quad depending par your on.

And if you don't hit your tee shot in the water you can get a birdie or a par. Good luck getting many pars after hitting a shot in the water by relying on your putting. Even on a par four you still have to hit your second shot (an approach shot) close enough to make the putt.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

you can disagree with me all you want but short game is way more important then long game.

Please take this the right way: you're wrong. It's not "disagreement" because it's a matter, these days, of fact. The short game is nowhere near as important as the full swing.

Please be open-minded about this. Consider the possibility that what you think is true is not.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

when i got back into golf i was shooting int he high 90s and low 100s, even since i worked on 130y-100y in and around the green and putting i dropped my scores down into the 80s jus cause i worked on my weakest parts of my game.

Working on the weakest parts of your game is good! Nobody here would disagree with that.

But at a point the short game is no longer the weakest part, and that point comes along pretty quickly. Even when the short game is the weakest part, it better REALLY STINK to make devoting 50%+ of your practice time to it sensible.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, proto said:

everyone hits it in the water and woods or in the trees, even tour guys. and lets say you can drive it and your 2nd shot is 130y into the green and you come up short or go into the bunker. and your short game isn't good at all and you can get around the green in 2 but you end up with a 4 or 5 because you can't control your balls on the greens or even putt. but like i said you can disagree with me all you want. i know what worked for me and this thread was wanting to know how he or she was able to break 100s and 90s

Please be open-minded.

And please answer this question.

Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers. Team A will play by having the pro hit every shot that requires a full swing style shot (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt. Team B will play the opposite way: the pro will hit every short game shot and putt after the 80s golfer plays every shot from the tee and outside of about 65 yards.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team wins?

@proto, what do you think? What do they shoot? What team wins?

[sirsteveo55]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers. Team A will play by having the pro hit every shot that requires a full swing style shot (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt. Team B will play the opposite way: the pro will hit every short game shot and putt after the 80s golfer plays every shot from the tee and outside of about 65 yards.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team wins?

This is a very interesting question, I hope after we answer it you will have some data or have a great answer for it. I would have to say the group where the pros hit the long ball and the 80's golfers hit the short balls would win. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, sirsteveo55 said:

This is a very interesting question, I hope after we answer it you will have some data or have a great answer for it. I would have to say the group where the pros hit the long ball and the 80's golfers hit the short balls would win. 

It's quoted almost verbatim from LSW. So the answer's already out there.

I'm waiting for @proto to share his answer. And hoping that he can be open-minded about all of this…

[sirhacksalot]

Can anyone point to a thread that talks about shooting low (for us) on the front but then typical or worse on the back?  I have had a handful of rounds where I will break or tie my best on the front nine shooting only 3 or 4 over, then on the back i will have 10 more strokes easily.  Ive had 38-52 39-48 etc. Honestly if i kept handicap by nine holes it would be scary.

[Lihu]

52 minutes ago, sirhacksalot said:

Can anyone point to a thread that talks about shooting low (for us) on the front but then typical or worse on the back?  I have had a handful of rounds where I will break or tie my best on the front nine shooting only 3 or 4 over, then on the back i will have 10 more strokes easily.  Ive had 38-52 39-48 etc. Honestly if i kept handicap by nine holes it would be scary.

Could you share more information like course conditions, where your shots are lost, driving distance on the front versus back etc?

[Hacker James]

Scoring differences between front and back nine. Anxiety going in, fatigue going out. Both can cost a few strokes.  I usually do better on the back nine. Then there are those souls who will "knit" nines to have better differentials.

[808hacker]

Guessing, but most people are hitting a lot harder and also getting more tired during a round. Concentration wavers too.

There is another factor. Your body "knows" what you should shoot and it's a major pain to convince it otherwise. It's so typical to have a horrible first round, then an awesome second round to make it up - but the final score is close to what you usually shoot. Vice versa.

If you take a good look at your scores I bet the rounds are somewhat close to what you usually score at. To me the only way to improve is to focus on your weak spots and really improve them to the point where they start making a difference. We are in this thread because we have problems man.

[sirhacksalot]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Could you share more information like course conditions, where your shots are lost, driving distance on the front versus back etc?

This happened last time we were on vacation after christmas at the club med course in Sandpiper Bay FLa, as well as my home course sterling links richmond hill Ga.  

The club med time was probably more anxiety of having a sub 40 front because i got a  6 on the par 3 10th. 

Home course I have played the front more than the back.  Meaning when the time changes i usually walk 8 holes of the front once a week or so, plus the normal round.  I haven't been tracking stats like i should, I have been a horrible putter lately and only slightly better with longer clubs. I feel like on those rounds i putted well and hit good approach shots ,ngirs etc, on the front and then on the back I had more penalties off the tee box, etc.  

The back nine at sterling is super short but has more hazards, a good golfer makes easy work of it, a bad golfer stays in the trees and swings driver on every hole because if i am ever going to drive the green its going to be on a 275-280 ish par for which there are two on the back.  When i did track stats it was annoyingly accurate and bad.  Cleary showing a two way miss.  4 way if you count long and short for greens. I think i deleted old game golf stats but i will post a snapshot later if i can find one.

[Lihu]

25 minutes ago, sirhacksalot said:

This happened last time we were on vacation after christmas at the club med course in Sandpiper Bay FLa, as well as my home course sterling links richmond hill Ga.  

The club med time was probably more anxiety of having a sub 40 front because i got a  6 on the par 3 10th. 

Home course I have played the front more than the back.  Meaning when the time changes i usually walk 8 holes of the front once a week or so, plus the normal round.  I haven't been tracking stats like i should, I have been a horrible putter lately and only slightly better with longer clubs. I feel like on those rounds i putted well and hit good approach shots ,ngirs etc, on the front and then on the back I had more penalties off the tee box, etc.  

I wasn't asking for your stats to verify anything, but rather just to see if you were getting tired on the back?

I generally do better on the back 9 since I rarely warm up before a round. I generally use the first 2 holes to warm up (sometimes the entire front 9 ).

However, I have partners who play really well on the front 9 and horribly as the day drags on. They start off hitting these phenomenal drives and on the back they end up hitting low short flyers. So they start the round 20 yards past me then end up 20 to 40 yards behind and it only gets worse for shots off the ground. Once the tee shots become anemic, they've pretty much had it. It's like fatigue sets in or something?

 

Quote

The back nine at sterling is super short but has more hazards, a good golfer makes easy work of it, a bad golfer stays in the trees and swings driver on every hole

Exactly, a good golfer is going to play conservatively. As long as possible without ending up in trouble.

 

Quote

because if i am ever going to drive the green its going to be on a 275-280 ish par for which there are two on the back.

Why would you do this for a tiny chance at an eagle putt? Hit an iron or hybrid and be left with an easy chip or something?

 

Quote

When i did track stats it was annoyingly accurate and bad.  Cleary showing a two way miss.  4 way if you count long and short for greens. I think i deleted old game golf stats but i will post a snapshot later if i can find one.

More hazards usually means teeing off with more conservative clubs (look at your shot zones), and if you say you swing driver on every hole then I can see you suffering on short tight holes.

Generally, think of short and tight holes as long holes only using a shorter club off the tee. If you end up in the trees, just swipe it out onto the fairway as far forward as possible. The worst you'd lose is 1 stroke. It's a risk versus reward type of thing.

[sirhacksalot]

16 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I generally do better on the back 9 since I rarely warm up before a round. I generally use the first 2 holes to warm up (sometimes the entire front 9 ).

Me as well, but i think this is part of my problem. For some reason since I don't warm up much, it's easy to shrug off bad shots and then sometimes even make a half decent recovery.  Say the drive on hole one is a worm burner leaving a long approach, I am not going to, rehearse my swing trying to feel if i closed my face, delofting, coming from the inside too much shallowing my swing, while standing up a lil, hitting off the bottom of the club.  I just go up to the long approach use a longer club and swing. For some reason as the round progresses, my bad shots mean more, and i start trying to fix them and survive the round usually making it worse.

[Lihu]

18 minutes ago, sirhacksalot said:

Me as well, but i think this is part of my problem. For some reason since I don't warm up much, it's easy to shrug off bad shots and then sometimes even make a half decent recovery.  Say the drive on hole one is a worm burner leaving a long approach, I am not going to, rehearse my swing trying to feel if i closed my face, delofting, coming from the inside too much shallowing my swing, while standing up a lil, hitting off the bottom of the club.  I just go up to the long approach use a longer club and swing. For some reason as the round progresses, my bad shots mean more, and i start trying to fix them and survive the round usually making it worse.

I used to do this, but it makes things even worse and can develop some bad habits.

We're told here repeatedly that the practice range are for fixes and the course is for playing.

When I practice, I'm usually just figuring out strategies. Although yesterday devolved into what you are describing, then I gave up and took out the driver for the rest of the round. Today it's back to swing practice with the 5Ss. Slow and steady only.

[Kalnoky]

On a full size course (which I walk) I pretty much always play a better front 9 than back. Reason being, loss of mental focus, daydreaming, etc. Thinking about having a beer especially.

[RandallT]

5 hours ago, sirhacksalot said:

Can anyone point to a thread that talks about shooting low (for us) on the front but then typical or worse on the back?  I have had a handful of rounds where I will break or tie my best on the front nine shooting only 3 or 4 over, then on the back i will have 10 more strokes easily.  Ive had 38-52 39-48 etc. Honestly if i kept handicap by nine holes it would be scary.

Thought I'd do a search, as I recall a thread somewhat recently. Can't seem to find the one I THOUGHT was within a year or so, but seems like others can empathize with you!