Bunker Rakes: In or Out of the Bunker?

[Golfingdad]

A rake outside a bunker could just as easily deflect a ball into the bunker that otherwise would've stayed out.  I'm with chile - regardless of where a rake is left, you can always come up with a scenario in which it would've been better to have been somewhere else.

I disagree. Read fourputts original scenarios. A rake left outside may deflect a ball into a bunker (I'd argue that it will keep a ball out of a bunker just as often) but it couldn't cause you to incur a penalty like a rake in the edge if the bunker.

[chilepepper]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But wouldn't you rather have it interfere outside of the bunker where there is no chance of it causing the player to have to take a penalty when it should never happen?  If the ball is stopped by a rake lying in the rough, then all it costs you is an insignificant amount of yardage.  Placing it half in and half out of the bunker is just silly.

Half in half out makes it easier to pick up

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

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Originally Posted by chilepepper

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Except this brings up the possibility of fourputts 2 scenarios just like if you had the entire rake in the edge of the bunker.

I see his point but......unless rakes are removed altogether, and carried on carts ( unlikely), there will always be a could have might have scenario regarding rakes interfering somehow

But wouldn't you rather have it interfere outside of the bunker where there is no chance of it causing the player to have to take a penalty when it should never happen?  If the ball is stopped by a rake lying in the rough, then all it costs you is an insignificant amount of yardage.  Placing it half in and half out of the bunker is just silly.

A rake outside a bunker could just as easily deflect a ball into the bunker that otherwise would've stayed out.

But really, how unlikely is that, rather than just being stopped?  It would take the ultimate case of bad luck for that to happen if the rake is just placed as the USGA recommends.  I've hit rakes both in and outside of bunkers more than a few times in 35 years of play, and I would always take the one outside.  Never, ever had a rake outside deflect the ball into the bunker, but I've sure had a rake inside of a bunker stop a ball which would have had a good chance to roll through the bunker.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

A rake outside a bunker could just as easily deflect a ball into the bunker that otherwise would've stayed out.

I'm with chile - regardless of where a rake is left, you can always come up with a scenario in which it would've been better to have been somewhere else.

I disagree. Read fourputts original scenarios. A rake left outside may deflect a ball into a bunker (I'd argue that it will keep a ball out of a bunker just as often) but it couldn't cause you to incur a penalty like a rake in the edge if the bunker.

Sure, it may keep a ball out of the bunker just as often. But I wasn't speaking to probabilities, just agreeing with chile that no matter where you leave a rake, there is a scenario where it can hurt you, including the potential for taking a penalty stroke. I'd read fourputts' scenarios, but consider the scenario where the rake is outside the bunker and it deflects a ball into the bunker which is full of casual water.  If the player doesn't want to hit a submerged ball, he's taking a penalty in order to drop outside.  That's one example where yes, you can incur a penalty as a result of a rake outside a bunker.  And that's all I was saying - that I disagree there was " no chance of it causing the player to have to take a penalty..." It may be *less* likely to penalize the player, but the probability is not zero.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

A rake outside a bunker could just as easily deflect a ball into the bunker that otherwise would've stayed out.

But really, how unlikely is that, rather than just being stopped?

Agreed, very unlikely. But again, I wasn't saying one thing was more likely than another, just refuting the statement saying there was no possibility of a rake outside a bunker potentially forcing a player to take a penalty. And, agreeing with chile's statement that regardless of whether the rake is in or out, you could come up with a scenario where it could penalize you (either with a tougher shot than you would otherwise have, or by forcing you to actually take a penalty).

On a related note, I had a question: In your scenario where the rake stops a ball in the bunker and the ball moves when the rake is removed, and the player is unable to get the ball to stay in its original spot without rolling down the face of the bunker, thus forcing him to drop outside the bunker with a penalty - is the player not allowed to lightly impress the ball into the sand in order to get it to stay?

[KevCarter]

No See the decision referenced in post #5. 20-3d/2.

[Golfingdad]

Sure, it may keep a ball out of the bunker just as often. But I wasn't speaking to probabilities, just agreeing with chile that no matter where you leave a rake, there is a scenario where it can hurt you, including the potential for taking a penalty stroke. I'd read fourputts' scenarios, but consider the scenario where the rake is outside the bunker and it deflects a ball into the bunker which is full of casual water.  If the player doesn't want to hit a submerged ball, he's taking a penalty in order to drop outside.  That's one example where yes, you can incur a penalty as a result of a rake outside a bunker.  And that's all I was saying - that I disagree there was " no chance of it causing the player to have to take a penalty..." It may be *less* likely to penalize the player, but the probability is not zero. Agreed, very unlikely. But again, I wasn't saying one thing was more likely than another, just refuting the statement saying there was no possibility of a rake outside a bunker potentially forcing a player to take a penalty. And, agreeing with chile's statement that regardless of whether the rake is in or out, you could come up with a scenario where it could penalize you (either with a tougher shot than you would otherwise have, or by forcing you to actually take a penalty). On a related note, I had a question: In your scenario where the rake stops a ball in the bunker and the ball moves when the rake is removed, and the player is unable to get the ball to stay in its original spot without rolling down the face of the bunker, thus forcing him to drop outside the bunker with a penalty - is the player not allowed to lightly impress the ball into the sand in order to get it to stay?

Ok, that's fair, however it seems to me that you should be an advocate for the rakes in the bottom of the bunkers instead of out or on the edges. Ultimately, though, this shouldn't be a very contentious issue because, I'm assuming like many of you, I can count on one hand the amount of times my ball has hit a rake ever ... In or out of a bunker.

[KevCarter]

Debate for the sake of debate. A question was asked and answered from more than one viewpoint. Just follow the culture of the course you're playing...

[Golfingdad]

Debate for the sake of debate. A question was asked and answered from more than one viewpoint. Just follow the culture of the course you're playing...

Exactly! It's their course and their rules. If they ask me to line up all he rakes along the back of each green ill do it. I'll call them crazy afterwards and not play there again, but I'll still follow their rules while I'm there. :)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The USGA recommends that they be left OUT of the bunker, and laid down parallel to the normal line of play for the hole to minimize the potential impact they might have on play.  When I worked as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association, one of our pre-round tasks was to tour the course.  We watched for any areas which still might need to be marked as GUR, we verified that the holes were cut in the proper locations and that none were in unfair positions, and we inspected all bunkers, raking if necessary and locating the rakes per USGA recommendation, regardless of course policy (we had that right as the committee in charge of the competition).

If the course refuses to follow this recommendation, then the USGA says that the rakes should be placed in the bottom of the bunker, not around the edges where they would have a heavier impact on play.  Here is a scenario for you to contemplate:

The rake is laid in the bunker, 5" from the lip nearest the tee.  A player in a competition plays his shot and the ball comes to rest in the bunker against the rake.  The bunker is well groomed so there is a minimum 3" vertical lip cut all the way around it.  The rake is properly removed as a movable obstruction, and if the ball moved is it replaced with no penalty.  The ball now lies just 4" from that lip, with the lip making a normal stroke unreasonable (if not impossible).  Had the rake not been in the bunker, or if it was laid in the bottom of the bunker, the ball would have rolled to the bottom, or at least well past the bunker lip.  Now the player has essentially been penalized for absolutely no good reason.  He is going to have to play a stroke out sideways, and depending on which side of the fairway he is on, he may even have to play away from the fairway.

Now change up the scenario slightly and the rake is still in the same position but the sand has a significant slope leading into the bunker, so that when the rake is removed, the ball will not remain in place.  There is no spot in the bunker which is not closer to the hole where the ball will remain at rest when placed. The player has no choice but to drop outside of the bunker under penalty of one stroke.  Had the rake not been in that position, the ball would have rolled to the bottom of the slope.

In both of these scenarios, it's easy to see that improper placement of the rake was both unfair and inequitable to the player involved.  While the rules don't always care about fairness, they are always concerned with equity.  Properly locating the rakes is crucial in a competition.  In casual play, you do what you think best, and what your conscience or your buddy tells you to, but in competition you are stuck between a rake and a hard place - no choice.

One other note - although placing the rakes in the bottom of the bunker may eliminate most of the above issues, it still may impact play in 2 other ways.

1)  It may stop a ball which might otherwise have run through the bunker, and

2)  It will potentially slow down the process of getting the rake and raking out the additional footprints made by having to go and fetch it from a different part of the bunker than your ball lies in.

So leave the rakes out when possible, and if not place them well away from the edges.

Here is what the USGA actually has to say about it officially"

Q. Should rakes be placed in or outside bunkers?

A. There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes, but on balance it is felt there is less likelihood of an advantage or disadvantage to the player if rakes are placed outside bunkers.

It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball will be deflected out of the bunker.

However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave them at the side which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the bunker, resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have been the case. This is most prevalent at a course where the bunkers are small. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and the player must proceed under Rule 24-1 , it may not be possible to replace the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the hole - see Decision 20-3d/2 .

If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker the only way to position them is to throw them into the bunker and this causes damage to the surface. Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker it is either not used or the player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker resulting in unnecessary delay.

Therefore, after considering all these aspects, it is recommended that rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball.

Ultimately, it is a matter for the Committee to decide where it wishes rakes to be placed.

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I think the problem addressed in Decision 20-3d/3 is overblown and easily dealt with.  Just do not put the rake on the downslope, facing the green.  That is what causes the problem.  If the rake is placed on the upslope, facing the green, then the ball will not roll closer to the hole.

Also, the USGA does NOT like the middle of the bunker option because it requires tossing the rake there which causes the likelihood of damage to the surface and kind of contradicts the whole point of raking, since it can cause the same kinds of bad lies as footprints.

That said, I agree with the USGA that outside the bunker, a step or two away, is the best option and the least likely to cause a problem in equity or rules.  The REAL problem is getting players to USE the rakes, IMO.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The USGA recommends that they be left OUT of the bunker, and laid down parallel to the normal line of play for the hole to minimize the potential impact they might have on play.  When I worked as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association, one of our pre-round tasks was to tour the course.  We watched for any areas which still might need to be marked as GUR, we verified that the holes were cut in the proper locations and that none were in unfair positions, and we inspected all bunkers, raking if necessary and locating the rakes per USGA recommendation, regardless of course policy (we had that right as the committee in charge of the competition).

If the course refuses to follow this recommendation, then the USGA says that the rakes should be placed in the bottom of the bunker, not around the edges where they would have a heavier impact on play.  Here is a scenario for you to contemplate:

The rake is laid in the bunker, 5" from the lip nearest the tee.  A player in a competition plays his shot and the ball comes to rest in the bunker against the rake.  The bunker is well groomed so there is a minimum 3" vertical lip cut all the way around it.  The rake is properly removed as a movable obstruction, and if the ball moved is it replaced with no penalty.  The ball now lies just 4" from that lip, with the lip making a normal stroke unreasonable (if not impossible).  Had the rake not been in the bunker, or if it was laid in the bottom of the bunker, the ball would have rolled to the bottom, or at least well past the bunker lip.  Now the player has essentially been penalized for absolutely no good reason.  He is going to have to play a stroke out sideways, and depending on which side of the fairway he is on, he may even have to play away from the fairway.

Now change up the scenario slightly and the rake is still in the same position but the sand has a significant slope leading into the bunker, so that when the rake is removed, the ball will not remain in place.  There is no spot in the bunker which is not closer to the hole where the ball will remain at rest when placed. The player has no choice but to drop outside of the bunker under penalty of one stroke.  Had the rake not been in that position, the ball would have rolled to the bottom of the slope.

In both of these scenarios, it's easy to see that improper placement of the rake was both unfair and inequitable to the player involved.  While the rules don't always care about fairness, they are always concerned with equity.  Properly locating the rakes is crucial in a competition.  In casual play, you do what you think best, and what your conscience or your buddy tells you to, but in competition you are stuck between a rake and a hard place - no choice.

One other note - although placing the rakes in the bottom of the bunker may eliminate most of the above issues, it still may impact play in 2 other ways.

1)  It may stop a ball which might otherwise have run through the bunker, and

2)  It will potentially slow down the process of getting the rake and raking out the additional footprints made by having to go and fetch it from a different part of the bunker than your ball lies in.

So leave the rakes out when possible, and if not place them well away from the edges.

Good post. I had always thought they were supposed to be in the bunker, the thought being a rake outside the bunker would stop a ball that otherwise would've rightly rolled in.

[Tom Shanks]

For the average amount of footprints I see in the bunkers on most courses.....you might as well just throw em into the woods.

[caniac6]

Originally Posted by Tom Shanks

For the average amount of footprints I see in the bunkers on most courses.....you might as well just throw em into the woods.

I agree! Some people need to be taught how to use a bunker rake rather than worry about where to place them.

[ghalfaire]

Interesting thread.  I had never given this a lot of thought and was taught to leave the rakes in the middle of the bunker but not leaning on the edge of the bunker.  But I think if people would leave them parallel to the line of play outside of a bunker with the prongs down  and so they can be seen, I'd like that better.  Or maybe they should additionally be placed behind the bunkers (where possible) to minimize the possibility of bouncing a ball into the bunker.   In any case I think in the future I'll leave them outside the bunker, you guys convinced me that is better.

[saevel25]

I personally leave them out of the bunker, i don't believe a man made object should be left in a hazard

[dsc123]

I leave them outside, in front, horizontal.  That way they are most likely to help the guy behind me.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by dsc123

I leave them outside, in front, horizontal.  That way they are most likely to help the guy behind me.

I hope that this is supposed to be sarcasm.  If so, you need to learn how to use emoticons.  If not it's one of the more useless comments in this thread.

[European Macca]

It's not an issue for me, too busy enjoying golf to be worried! You get good breaks and bad,you accept that and get on with your next shot, if you cant put it behind you the you will stay awake worrying about the rake issue?

[Chunky]

I go with the rules wise advantage of having a rake outside the bunker, but what irks me the most is having to step in the bunker grab a rake and then rake your tracks and then go hit your ball and rake again. Two words: SLOW PLAY!