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Putts are 1/2 Stroke?


mdl
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Skill value should never be confused for shot value.

Yes, I do believe better ball strikers are higher up in the food chain when it come to 'skill' and I personally do not care much about putting in general but I have no qualms that each putting stroke is a full stroke. Just because it is easier to be fairly competent at putting skill wise should not reduce it's shot value. It wouldn't be golf.

 

Vishal S.

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First of all, thanks to @mdl for mentioning this idea.  Sparking a golf discussion is rarely a bad thing.

I agree with everyone, including @mdl, that devaluing putts would fundamentally change the game.  It would give a huge advantage to the more accurate player, who already enjoys a healthy edge over his less accurate opponent.

This idea might be an interesting format for a just-for-fun event.  Sort of like "No Tap" bowling where 9 pins counts like a strike.

Brian Kuehn

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3 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

First of all, thanks to @mdl for mentioning this idea.  Sparking a golf discussion is rarely a bad thing.

I agree with everyone, including @mdl, that devaluing putts would fundamentally change the game.  It would give a huge advantage to the more accurate player, who already enjoys a healthy edge over his less accurate opponent.

This idea might be an interesting format for a just-for-fun event.  Sort of like "No Tap" bowling where 9 pins counts like a strike.

Yeah, so there are specialty skill events like Long Drive and Mini-golf, that are based on similar lines.

A strokes-gained competition event can easily be accomplished if you use Game Golf.  

Vishal S.

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3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Yeah, so there are specialty skill events like Long Drive and Mini-golf, that are based on similar lines.

A strokes-gained competition event can easily be accomplished if you use Game Golf.  

Interesting.  So you get like an "amateur" strokes gained score from Game Golf (presumably gained, i.e. with the model fit, against their amateur database, not against the PGA data)? How do you get to a single round total strokes gained?  Is it just the average of every shot's SG?  I think it would be fun to have SG be a scoring method in a tournament.  Like, lots of clubs have separate gross and net prizes.  How about total SG, gross score, and net score?  Or just gross SG and net SG?  How would net SG work?

Matt

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Just now, mdl said:

Interesting.  So you get like an "amateur" strokes gained score from Game Golf (presumably gained, i.e. with the model fit, against their amateur database, not against the PGA data)? How do you get to a single round total strokes gained?  Is it just the average of every shot's SG?  I think it would be fun to have SG be a scoring method in a tournament.  Like, lots of clubs have separate gross and net prizes.  How about total SG, gross score, and net score?  Or just gross SG and net SG?  How would net SG work?

Sorry, I have no idea of how the specifics would work. All I know is GG does SG that you can actually use as a variable shot value to figure a system. You can use scratch, PGA, whatever as your standard. Although it sounds like to a huge hassle to get it worked out as a proper scoring system.

Have fun if you do undertake it..!

Vishal S.

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So that makes the "magic" 58 something like 45?
Hitting every green in regulation, except hitting 2 par 5's in 2, so that is 34 strokes and then say 22 putts.

Gives a whole new meaning to giving someone a shot on some holes; I do kinda like it as an alternative scoring/betting system (like stableford). And gimmies become less valuable, or missed gimmies (not given) become less hurtful.

I would guess there would have to be new words invented to portray scoring 1/2 stroke over & under par, and those 1.5 over/under par.
I propose the following:
-1.5 under par be called a jackpot
-1/2 under par be called a Wally
- 1/2 over par be called a Booger
- 1.5 over par a zinger

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Players play, tough players win!

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Speaking as someone who can't hit a 2i 20 feet from anything, I think we should make putts worth two strokes.

The guy who bailed out and saved par is the hero of the story. The 2i-hitter took an unnecessary risk and got lucky. We shouldn't reward him for that.

I'll admit that your or his definition of "unnecessary" may differ from mine.

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15 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I have a vague memory that Ben Hogan suggested something similar.  Of course, putting was the weakest part of his game, so its logical that he'd prefer to de-emphasize the importance of it.

From what I've heard, before the accident he was known as quite a good putter. I think one of his eyes received damage in the wreck and it got worse as he aged. I think later in life he just hated the humiliation of struggling in front of others at something that he was once pretty sharp at.

@RandallT am I wrong in thinking that devaluing the putt would actually help less accurate / shorter hitters? Isn't the ability to gain full strokes on opponents with birdies and eagles (while making few long game errors) what helps separate them by virtue of putting their approach closer than the good putters?

Edited by natureboy

Kevin

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8 hours ago, natureboy said:

 

@RandallT am I wrong in thinking that devaluing the putt would actually help less accurate / shorter hitters? Isn't the ability to gain full strokes on opponents with birdies and eagles (while making few long game errors) what helps separate them by virtue of putting their approach closer than the good putters?

I think I get what you mean, and it's counterintuitive. Is this a summation?:

Since the putt is now only a half stroke, then longer putts are no big deal- there is less separation in putting. Therefore, there is less value in sticking it close and the less accurate/shorter hitters stand to gain.

If that's what you mean, then I guess that only holds if they both hit the green. The whole idea is preposterous as you get shots very near the green. For example, a shot from the fringe is a full shot, but a putt that starts 2 inches away is only 1/2 shot. At some point, there is a boundary where a full shot becomes a half shot, and that boundary now becomes very critical. 

So two guys end up nearly identical (one on fringe, one just on green). They both "2-putt" from there. The guy who putts from the green gets a 3 for the hole (2 putts = 1 stroke), and the guy who putts from the fringe gets a 3 1/2. In that case, the more accurate hitter benefits, but it just seems silly.

By the same token, as I start to improve more, my own intangible measurement of a satisfactory day is similar to Hogan's: how well do I strike the ball and get the ball on/near the green. When I get to the point where I'm competing, I'll surely factor in the rest of the game because I'll need to get the ball in the damn hole is soon as possible, but I sorta live by the spirit of the thread in that my satisfaction of a round is driven mainly by how well I strike the ball. That's where I feel I need to get as a golfer. In my head, I'm almost subconsciously counting the strokes around the green as 1/2 strokes or even less! :-D

 

 

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2 hours ago, RandallT said:

I think I get what you mean, and it's counterintuitive. Is this a summation?:

Since the putt is now only a half stroke, then longer putts are no big deal- there is less separation in putting. Therefore, there is less value in sticking it close and the less accurate/shorter hitters stand to gain.

If that's what you mean, then I guess that only holds if they both hit the green. The whole idea is preposterous as you get shots very near the green. For example, a shot from the fringe is a full shot, but a putt that starts 2 inches away is only 1/2 shot. At some point, there is a boundary where a full shot becomes a half shot, and that boundary now becomes very critical. 

So two guys end up nearly identical (one on fringe, one just on green). They both "2-putt" from there. The guy who putts from the green gets a 3 for the hole (2 putts = 1 stroke), and the guy who putts from the fringe gets a 3 1/2. In that case, the more accurate hitter benefits, but it just seems silly.

By the same token, as I start to improve more, my own intangible measurement of a satisfactory day is similar to Hogan's: how well do I strike the ball and get the ball on/near the green. When I get to the point where I'm competing, I'll surely factor in the rest of the game because I'll need to get the ball in the damn hole is soon as possible, but I sorta live by the spirit of the thread in that my satisfaction of a round is driven mainly by how well I strike the ball. That's where I feel I need to get as a golfer. In my head, I'm almost subconsciously counting the strokes around the green as 1/2 strokes or even less! :-D

 

Haha.  Totally.  Maybe that's why I was intrigued by this.  I love a good scoring day like anyone, but like you, I personally get more satisfaction from a solid ball striking day.  Give me the same score on two days, one where I struck the ball well but had one blow up hole and didn't putt great, and the other where I struck the ball poorly but was excellent with the 60˚ and putter, and I'm going to feel a lot more satisfied after the first one.

@Wally Fairway, love the naming idea!  Though I think we should stick with bird related names for under par.

1.5 under par is an Osprey

0.5 under par is a gosling

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Matt

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Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
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9 hours ago, RandallT said:

I think I get what you mean, and it's counterintuitive. Is this a summation?:

Since the putt is now only a half stroke, then longer putts are no big deal- there is less separation in putting. Therefore, there is less value in sticking it close and the less accurate/shorter hitters stand to gain.

That's about what I meant. Also that for players of ~ similar HCP the long game differences should't be that extreme (such that one is taking heaps of stroke and distance penalties e.g.), so by and large their 'full strokes' will be similar except for the par 5's, but the margin of made putts from hitting a GIR (or better) will be built from 'half strokes' so their round scores will be closer in value and the field scores will be across a smaller range.

Now if you made each holed shot a different value according to how many feet it started from the hole. That would be an interesting variation. Not sure who it would favor - likely better putters on average because even though a holed approach shot from 100+ yards would be worth a ton, they tend to be rare. If you limited that 'distance value' to just on the green (say more than one shot over avg 2-putt distance and less than 1 shot inside avg 2-putt distance) I think it would help the better putters by giving even more than 1 expected shot 'gain'.

Edited by natureboy

Kevin

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A stroke is a stroke. I can spin the ball with an iron from the fairway so that's where I want to be. One reason I like the US Open is that they usually have long tough roughs. If you want to win you had better keep the ball in the fairway. 

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On 1/23/2017 at 0:14 PM, mdl said:

Interesting.  So you get like an "amateur" strokes gained score from Game Golf (presumably gained, i.e. with the model fit, against their amateur database, not against the PGA data)? How do you get to a single round total strokes gained?

If you mean, to get to it with GG, go to Insights --> Strokes Gained.  It defaults to all rounds.

In the dropdown menu at the top right, you can select for the last round played: 

SG select round.jpg

Or you can select an individual round (if you're not looking for your last round) from the link under the menu:

GG single round.jpg

Edited by Missouri Swede

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agree with a lot of other people here,who say a stroke is a stroke. some peoples strength is there driving,some people there irons,some short game,and others there putting.seems pretty unfair to devalue one part of the game. to be a good golfer you need to play well in all aspects of the game,or good enough at your strengths, to cover your weaknesses. and for me personally putting is probably not just the strongest part of my game.but also the part that i enjoy the most. anytime i sink anything from over 12 feet(thats a long one for me:dance:) i get pretty excited. and then realise ive just saved myself a shot. not quite the same if there only worth a half stroke saved.and what about the pro who drains a 40 footer,i dont think thats,that easy neither 

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On 1/20/2017 at 6:00 PM, mdl said:

Maybe I was unclear.  In scenario, player 1 hits 3i to 20 feet, two putts.  Player 1 doesn't hit in the water and hole out.  Player 2 bails away from the water, on dry land, hits a regular pitch as his second shot to 8 feet, one putts.

And I meant 1/2 stroke as the score.  So in above, player 1 takes one shot to get to the green, two shots (putts) from ball sitting on the green, for 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 2 total score.  Player 2 hits one shot off the green in the rough, pitches onto the green, drains the putt, for 1 + 1 + 0.5 = 2.5 total score for the hole.

My point about the harder shot is that the 3i to 20 feet was much harder than the combined 3i missing the green, relatively short pitch to 8 feet combined.  Think of the percentages.  The % of time you hit a 3i within 20 feet of your target and then successfully two putt is wildly smaller than the % of time you can hit a 3i within 25-35 yards of your target and get up and down. 

Honestly?  Not remotely interesting.  The player who hits the green has already been rewarded by being able to putt the next shot.  Doesn't require anything more than that.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Stuff and nonsense.  A stroke is a stroke.  It isn't how - it's how many.

This.

Interesting theoretical/philosophical discussion, but I wouldn't implement it.

Don

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Driver: PING 410 Plus 9 degrees, Alta CB55 S  Fairway: Callaway Rogue 3W PX Even Flow Blue 6.0; Hybrid: Titleist 818H1 21* PX Even Flow Blue 6.0;  Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 5-W2(53*) Shafts- TT AMT Red S300 ; Wedges Vokey SM8 56-10D Putter: Scotty Cameron 2016 Newport 2.5  Ball: Titleist AVX or 2021 ProV1

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Note: This thread is 2612 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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