Balls in a Position to Assist on the Putting Green

[SCDuffer]

Scouring the rules and finally gave up, but this rules interpretation was shared with me this week during a 32 man net2 balls tournament.

With 4 guys playing, often times someone chipping up to the green will want balls on the surface (especially close to the hole), so they have the advantage of stopping the ball nearer to the hole.  Forget about the purpose, but this was the situation that led to the following comments.

 

I asked the chipper, "do you want us to leave the balls on the surface or mark them?"

We finished out the hole when he let me know that if the chipper indicates "leave your balls there" or if any partner with a ball on the surface asks if they want it marked, then by rule - all balls on the surface MUST be marked.

 

First time I have EVER heard this, not sure where do locate that rule/interpretation or decision.  Thoughts?

[Rulesman]

It's is in Rule 22-1

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may: 

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or

b. Have any other ball lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Rulesman

[SCDuffer]

Interesting - so basically its a collusion clause :)

Appreciate the post, I suspected it was a very liberal interpretation with some nonsense conjecture.  The rule is very clear to me...minus the fact that if there is NOT a conversation/agreement  to assist, then it's very hard to prove intent.

[Lihu]

30 minutes ago, SCDuffer said:

Interesting - so basically its a collusion clause :)

Appreciate the post, I suspected it was a very liberal interpretation with some nonsense conjecture.  The rule is very clear to me...minus the fact that if there is NOT a conversation/agreement  to assist, then it's very hard to prove intent.

 

If I understood the red highlighted clause in @Rulesman's post, I think once you ask, then you must mark?

I don't run into this situation partly because I always mark when on the green, and partly because the people I play with are all over and around the green so we never really interfere with each other .

It certainly is not necessary, but marking seems the most prudent thing to do? Pretty much all my other partners do the same thing.

[iacas]

If your ball can assist your partner and nobody says anything by all means leave it there.

But don't ask your partner, and comply if asked by your opponents to mark.

[rehmwa]

that's what I got from it.  You can mark your own ball, you can ask any other ball to be marked.

but you can't ask for a ball to NOT be marked.....(and it's not a great idea to ask someone if they want you to NOT lift and mark it - if so, I'd guess the only reasonable response is "it's not my place to comment" or 'mark it please')

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

If your ball can assist your partner and nobody says anything by all means leave it there.

But don't ask your partner, and comply if asked by your opponents to mark.

 

16 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

that's what I got from it.  You can mark your own ball, you can ask any other ball to be marked.

but you can't ask for a ball to NOT be marked.....(and it's not a great idea to ask someone if they want you to NOT lift and mark it - if so, I'd guess the only reasonable response is "it's not my place to comment" or 'mark it please')

I probably should change to don't mark and don't ask by default.

[SCDuffer]

Great comments guys.  Still conflicted a bit - i guess.  I'll be asking players to mark, but I guess I'll keep my yap shut in regards to marking and wait for the request.  I'll also have the conversation about the rule with our pro and rules committee.  In the end, this part is the one that gets to ethics and following the rules:

 

if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may....

 

So....lots or room for interpretation, but if you think it can help someone...your are by definition required to mark or ask for it to be marked.  Should provide for good local discussion either way.  Thanks again all!

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

I can see instances where leaving a ball unmarked might help pace of play but only if it clearly would not come into play, even with errant shot. BUT as soon as the player asked for it to not be marked it became clear he felt it was an advantage... and therefore had to be marked to 'protect the field.'

Brings back awful memories I have of playing a singles match with a third player playing as a marker. Twice the guy I was playing let the 'marker' who was not away go first because he 'wasn't ready'. The third time it happened I got in his face about it. Got called a few names. Even back in the clubhouse I was amazed how many players defended it as 'ready golf' when it was clearly being done to offer an advantage. Fewer and fewer people play tournament golf so rules of the game are getting pushed aside. BTW: We sometimes joke... if you want to learn the rules of golf, play one round in a women's league!

[Rulesman]

22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q.In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A.No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1.

See also

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-22,d22-7

Edited January 22, 2017 by Rulesman

[SCDuffer]

Rulesman - you nailed it again.  But....and this is the subtlety of it, if they don't converse about it - is it something that gets them disqualified.

I generally play with this group about 4-6 times a month (tuesday/friday) game.  As a club we are very rules focused - abiding, etc... but twice over the last 4-6 months I have seen this come up and I'll address it for sure.  In the end...mark your ball if you are near the pin/green/ball anyway.  

 

Pace of play is a consideration of course, but neither time that i heard/saw collusion to gain an advantage was it a concern.  Thanks again!

 

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, SCDuffer said:

Rulesman - you nailed it again.  But....and this is the subtlety of it, if they don't converse about it - is it something that gets them disqualified.

I generally play with this group about 4-6 times a month (tuesday/friday) game.  As a club we are very rules focused - abiding, etc... but twice over the last 4-6 months I have seen this come up and I'll address it for sure.  In the end...mark your ball if you are near the pin/green/ball anyway.  

 

Pace of play is a consideration of course, but neither time that i heard/saw collusion to gain an advantage was it a concern.  Thanks again!

 

If you are not one of the two players directly involved and feel there is a silent collusion, you can of course ask for (or just suggest) the ball to be removed. If you ask, it would have to be moved. If you suggest, any potential collusion would become obvious. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Rulesman

[Missouri Swede]

Here's a thread where we discussed this issue involving a PGA tournament:

 

[Golfingdad]

If a ball will not hurt me (it's near the hole but not in my line) I might go ahead and start my chipping/pitching routine before the guy who just hit it has a chance to go mark it.  If I see him walking up anyway, I'll wait.  But if he's like me, once he sees me getting ready to hit he knows that means it doesn't bother me so he will wait.

Edit:  That is, if we're talking about stroke play competitions or casual rounds.  If we're talking about a match play opponent then I'm always marking mine and I expect my opponent is doing the same.

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

 If I see him walking up anyway, I'll wait.  But if he's like me, once he sees me getting ready to hit he knows that means it doesn't bother me so he will wait..

Sounds suspiciously like an agreement.

[Lihu]

18 hours ago, Lihu said:

I probably should change to don't mark and don't ask by default.

 

21 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Sounds suspiciously like an agreement.

Okay, now I know why I always mark, back to that method. I don't want to be accused of ""

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Sounds suspiciously like an agreement.

You think?  I would've guessed there would have to be some type of actual communication for an agreement to be in place.

I think a fair word for what I'm describing is an "acknowledgment."

[Rulesman]

Acknowledging that he doesn't want the ball moving and that you now don't intend to?