USGA/R&A Introduce "Modernized" Rules

[Fourputt]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I did take the survey, and saw the same thing.  My opinion, I don't think the penalties for OB and lost ball should be changed.  I also gave my name and email, should they choose me to follow up with later on.

I agree and I did the same.  I'm actually more excited about the change process than I thought I'd be, and really only have significant reservations about a couple of the proposals.

See @iacas, I have a more open mind than you thought I would. 

[Big_in_Belgium]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I did take the survey, and saw the same thing.  My opinion, I don't think the penalties for OB and lost ball should be changed.  I also gave my name and email, should they choose me to follow up with later on.

 +1 on not changing the OB and lost ball rule.

(And I also gave them my name and email)

[1badbadger]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I did take the survey, and saw the same thing.  My opinion, I don't think the penalties for OB and lost ball should be changed.  I also gave my name and email, should they choose me to follow up with later on.

Dave, what are your thoughts on why OB and lost ball shouldn't be changed?

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

See @iacas, I have a more open mind than you thought I would. 

You've surprised me, I'll admit it.

4 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Dave, what are your thoughts on why OB and lost ball shouldn't be changed?

I think I know what he'll say. And I'll probably agree.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

This sounds pretty stuffy. Who knows what the PRINCIPLES OF GOLF! means? Who cares? Get the ball in the air, into the hole. That's the principle for most people. If you can't handle that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Plenty of people know the Principles. People who know a H-E-L-L of a lot more about golf than you do.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Now you know what it's like to be on the wrong side of history. The numbers, which we both know, show that this is only a band-aid on hemorrhaging.

Yeah… like most of the BS you've posted today, that doesn't make any sense.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Here's what you're up against. There are people out there who laugh when I have said "If I lose two balls on one hole, I don't play it."

Maybe you just say the word "balls" funny.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Nothing I say is going to change anything. When I play alone, which is most of the time and is all the time my preference, I don't pull the flag. It's a waste of time. If this rule change doesn't survive, then don't expect these rule changes to bring in new people--which is how an activity grows--or keeps people playing who are on the verge (always) of quitting.

Rules changes are not going to bring people into the game. Roughly 0 people per year say "I'd start playing golf, but man, they make you take the flagstick out before you putt?"

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Yes, the game needs to be simpler. It's hard enough as it is. What you believe is right for you, but is it right for the game we both love? I don't know. I'm just being as objective as I can be.

You're the least objective person here.

[jsgolfer]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I did take the survey, and saw the same thing.  My opinion, I don't think the penalties for OB and lost ball should be changed.  I also gave my name and email, should they choose me to follow up with later on.

I took the survey and had the same thought about changing the penalties for OB and the lost ball.  And I wasn't in favor of it if it was played like a current hazard, but if it was a two stroke penalty, I'm not sure it would bother me that much, especially during a normal play round.  I was thinking my way around Springfield and I'm not sure I would take the relief that way all the time, there are places where that type of relief would not help you much.

E.G. If I hit one out of bounds, unless I'm playing in a tournament or for money, I'm usually taking a double, even if I re-tee and I'm lying three in the fairway.  I've made bogey after hitting it out of bounds but not that many.  So dropping where it crosses the OB line and lying three might be a way to speed up play.  I know may players who do that now and then just take their equitable stroke when they submit their score.    

On the fence with this one, I keep waffling back and forth.

[mvmac]

20 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I still feel that the biggest deterrent to bringing new players into golf is cost.

That plays a role for sure. 

I think time is a bigger factor, which the proposed rules are taking into account with encouraging a prompt pace of play (40 sec rule, ready golf) and some the new stuff with player's behavior. It won't make a huge dent in the time but it'll hopefully make players more aware and start trending things in the right direction. 

[jsgolfer]

Just now, mvmac said:

That plays a role for sure. 

I think time is a bigger factor, which the proposed rules are taking into account with encouraging a prompt pace of play (40 sec rule, ready golf) and some the new stuff with player's behavior. It won't make a huge dent in the time but it'll hopefully make players more aware and start trending things in the right direction. 

This is my thought too, there are plenty of  places to play golf cheaply (Country Clubs are a luxury).  

[dsc123]

2 minutes ago, mvmac said:

That plays a role for sure. 

I think time is a bigger factor, which the proposed rules are taking into account with encouraging a prompt pace of play (40 sec rule, ready golf) and some the new stuff with player's behavior. It won't make a huge dent in the time but it'll hopefully make players more aware and start trending things in the right direction. 

I've never met someone who said they don't play golf because of the rules.  Cost, time, difficulty of hitting a ball straight, sure.  But those people never get far enough to be bothered by the rules. 

[DaveP043]

 

15 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Dave, what are your thoughts on why OB and lost ball shouldn't be changed?

The alternate to stroke and distance would be to treat these two situations similar to a ball in a hazard, allowing some "credit" for distance gained.  Yet for a ball OB, we've hit it off of the property we've been given as our playing field, while a ball in the water is still within that property.  Consequently, it deserves a larger penalty, and stroke plus distance provides that.

 For a lost ball, we have the problem of where to drop.  For a hazard, our reference is the location where the ball crossed the boundary of the hazard, something we can define with at least a small degree of accuracy.  For a lost ball, you can't define a single location.  You're left with something nebulous like "The last time I saw it, it was....", but you're only guessing.  Do you allow the player to drop, even with a stroke penalty, at the location where the ball was last in a "good place"?  That seems way too lenient.  Lacking a defined reference point, we're left with replaying the shot.  Without the penalty, a player would have the option of replaying a shot that he knows is in a bad spot, rather than trying to find it and play it from there, and that's not appropriate.  Consequently, I think stroke plus distance is appropriate for a lost ball too.

This distinction is explained better than I probably just did in the book "The Principles behind the Rules of Golf", by Richard Tufts.

And now I'll wait to see whether @iacas agrees with my explanation, adds to or modifies it, or just plain thinks I'm a moron.

[Fourputt]

6 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Dave, what are your thoughts on why OB and lost ball shouldn't be changed?

I can answer that.  They are special situations that require fairly severe reactions.  

With a lost ball, you don't know where it is, so how can you possibly identify a dropping location?  I've seen "lost" balls found more than 60 yards away from where it was thought that they were.

For out of bounds, you have hit the ball off the golf course.  You need to go back and play again from the last point where the ball was actually at rest on the course.  I have never bought into the argument that you have a boundary for a reference point.  

Every other situation in golf, you either know where the ball is or you at least know that it's somewhere in a defined area of the golf course, even if the exact location isn't known, so the penalty should have the possibility of being somewhat less severe.  I would be willing to buy into a rule that assessed a 2 stroke penalty for dropping a measured distance from the out of bounds line, but I can't condone a rule that would allow a drop for a lost ball which is pure guesswork as to the location.

[jsgolfer]

Just now, dsc123 said:

I've never met someone who said they don't play golf because of the rules.  Cost, time, difficulty of hitting a ball straight, sure.  But those people never get far enough to be bothered by the rules. 

This is my son for sure, as I would pay for him to play.  but he doesn't want to take lessons and then gets frustrated within a few holes that he can't get the ball airborne.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This distinction is explained better than I probably just did in the book "The Principles behind the Rules of Golf", by Richard Tufts.

And now I'll wait to see whether @iacas agrees with my explanation, adds to or modifies it, or just plain thinks I'm a moron.

Yeah, that's fine, but because of the first paragraph quoted that's why I knew it'd be fine.

Also, golf consists of playing your ball on the golf course. When your ball leaves the golf course, the only possible thing is to put your ball back in play where you last were.

Your ball is still in play in a water hazard. The rules provide relief for you, with a penalty, but it's still on the course and you can play it if you want.

It's not in play in someone's back yard OB. You're no longer playing the golf course.

[dsc123]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I would be willing to buy into a rule that assessed a 2 stroke penalty for dropping a measured distance from the out of bounds line, but I can't condone a rule that would allow a drop for a lost ball which is pure guesswork as to the location.

I would like to see a 2 stroke penalty for OB or lost ball.  The walk back to the tee should be completely eliminated from the game.  The only reason why you don't see it happen more often is because people apply a rule like this or just take a free drop all the time. 

You do make a good point about why OB is different than lost.  But I think that's better solved by a more creative rule than rehitting. 

[Fourputt]

1 minute ago, dsc123 said:

I would like to see a 2 stroke penalty for OB or lost ball.  The walk back to the tee should be completely eliminated from the game.  The only reason why you don't see it happen more often is because people apply a rule like this or just take a free drop all the time. 

You do make a good point about why OB is different than lost.  But I think that's better solved by a more creative rule than rehitting. 

This is still why the provisional ball is in the game.  There are any number of areas on my home course outside of hazards where a ball can be lost, and it's usually pretty obvious when I've hit my ball toward a spot where that chance exists.  I play a provisional ball in those cases.  

Under the new rule some of those areas might well be marked as "penalty areas", and as such the new rule would be in effect.  However, that will not eliminate the possibility of a lost ball, only lessen the chances.  Once I learn how many changes the course is willing to make under the new rules, I'll determine then what penalties I may incur and proceed accordingly.  

That doesn't change my feeling on this condition.  Lost is lost and there is no way to identify a satisfactory dropping point except the spot where the last stroke was played from.

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I would like to see a 2 stroke penalty for OB or lost ball.  The walk back to the tee should be completely eliminated from the game.  The only reason why you don't see it happen more often is because people apply a rule like this or just take a free drop all the time. 

You do make a good point about why OB is different than lost.  But I think that's better solved by a more creative rule than rehitting. 

The walk back to the tee can almost be eliminated by proper use of provisionals.  You'll still occasionally have a lost of OB ball that couldn't have been anticipated, but that's relatively rare.  Even so, a two-stroke penalty for a lost ball, allowing a drop where the ball went OB, wouldn't be too objectionable to me.

But for a lost ball, what kind of creative solution would still be equitable?  How can you define a reference point for dropping (or placing) if you don't know where the ball is?  I just don't see an appropriate alternate solution.

[dsc123]

Just now, Fourputt said:

This is still why the provisional ball is in the game.  There are any number of areas on my home course outside of hazards where a ball can be lost, and it's usually pretty obvious when I've hit my ball toward a spot where that chance exists.  I play a provisional ball in those cases.  

Under the new rule some of those areas might well be marked as "penalty areas", and as such the new rule would be in effect.  However, that will not eliminate the possibility of a lost ball, only lessen the chances.  Once I learn how many changes the course is willing to make under the new rules, I'll determine then what penalties I may incur and proceed accordingly.  

That doesn't change my feeling on this condition.  Lost is lost and there is no way to identify a satisfactory dropping point except the spot where the last stroke was played from.

Sure, and I hit a provisional anytime I think the ball might be lost.  Everyone should. 

But I think its not uncommon to unexpectedly lose a ball.  Especially on courses with blind shots.  Thick rough, bad bounces, poor eye sight, golf ball scavengers, aliens, etc. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

But I think its not uncommon to unexpectedly lose a ball.  Especially on courses with blind shots.  Thick rough, bad bounces, poor eye sight, golf ball scavengers, aliens, etc. 

I agree.

But in a tournament round, sorry, go back to the tee. In a casual or recreational round… nobody cares what you do. Just put a ball down and either do par+handicap or write in the score you most likely would have made (depending on where you fall in that debate) for your handicap. If you keep a handicap.

(They won't do this, I'm just making this up…) I wonder if the USGA made it a three-stroke penalty and said you couldn't go back to the tee for a lost or OB ball if more people wouldn't suddenly remember to play provisionals more frequently…

[chspeed]

19 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For a lost ball, you can't define a single location.  You're left with something nebulous like "The last time I saw it, it was....", but you're only guessing.

Yes, but guessing happens in water hazards too. Even Tiger's and his playing partners were way off as to where his ball crossed the hazard in the 2013 Players tournament.

 

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Also, golf consists of playing your ball on the golf course. When your ball leaves the golf course, the only possible thing is to put your ball back in play where you last were.

One local course deals with this by turning the entire perimeter of the course into a hazard using red stakes. They have a local rule that there is no out-of-bounds. Personally, I don't like that solution.

I don't  think changing this rule will make much of a difference in time saved anyway. The players who take the most time either:

1. Spend 15 minutes looking for their ball even if it's out of bounds, or so deep in a hazard there's no chance of finding it.

2. Don't know the stroke-and-distance rule, and drop it near the out-of-bounds area anyway.