USGA/R&A Introduce "Modernized" Rules

[dsc123]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

But for a lost ball, what kind of creative solution would still be equitable?  How can you define a reference point for dropping (or placing) if you don't know where the ball is?  I just don't see an appropriate alternate solution.

Well that's the question.  The penalty has to eliminate the possibility that the player is better off taking a drop than provisional.  Perhaps a drop where the ball was last seen (not where you think it would have come to rest), with a 2 stroke penalty.  If you hit it into the rough, you're dropping in the rough--not within 80 inches of the rough--with 2 strokes.

 

Its not perfect.  But I'm not sure that spot is any less certain than trying to gauge whether a ball 200 yards away, in the air, moving at 75mph on a curving path crossed an invisible OB line.  Particularly from the vantage point of the tee,which is the one of the hardest places from which to make that judgment. 

[DaveP043]

Just now, dsc123 said:

Well that's the question.  The penalty has to eliminate the possibility that the player is better off taking a drop than provisional.  Perhaps a drop where the ball was last seen (not where you think it would have come to rest), with a 2 stroke penalty.  If you hit it into the rough, you're dropping in the rough--not within 80 inches of the rough--with 2 strokes.

 

Its not perfect.  But I'm not sure that spot is any less certain than trying to gauge whether a ball 200 yards away, in the air, moving at 75mph on a curving path crossed an invisible OB line.  Particularly from the vantage point of the tee,which is the one of the hardest places from which to make that judgment. 

Hence, stroke and distance for both OB and lost balls is appropriate.

[dsc123]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Hence, stroke and distance for both OB and lost balls is appropriate.

I'll give you: "Hence, both OB and lost balls should be treated similarly."   

But I'd still like the walk back out of the rules.  I don't think players ever should be put in the position of having to choose between a significant delay of game for everyone or following the rules.  Especially in the case of the unexpectedly lost ball.  Its already a kick in the groin. 

 

 

[No Mulligans]

2 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

This sounds pretty stuffy. Who knows what the PRINCIPLES OF GOLF! means? Who cares?

There is the most ridiculous statement I've seen on the rules discussion on this forum.  Why are you even commenting if you don't know the principles behing the the rules of golf.  They are so simple and fundamental to the game.

Play the course as you find it.  Play the ball is it lies.  If you can't do either, do what's fair.

That's all there is.

9 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I'll give you: "Hence, both OB and lost balls should be treated similarly."   

But I'd still like the walk back out of the rules.  I don't think players ever should be put in the position of having to choose between a significant delay of game for everyone or following the rules.  Especially in the case of the unexpectedly lost ball.  Its already a kick in the groin. 

I'd like to see a drop and take two rule for casual play only.  Most players I play with do that or drop and take one.  I'm the only one in any group I've played with that has gone back to the tee box (and yes, I usually hit a provisional).  A member in the group insists that drop and take one is what everyone does, he's never seen anyone drop and take two .  This will benefit a good % of the players by creating consistency in treatment of the OB/Lost Ball situation if it was defined and codified in the rules.

For me it's a practical matter, an unfortunate but necessary compromise.  

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Yes, but guessing happens in water hazards too.

I don't think guessing is too bad there. There are less trees for a ball to bounce off of in a hazard, and the line is pretty obvious.

35 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Even Tiger's and his playing partners were way off as to where his ball crossed the hazard in the 2013 Players tournament.

I don't think they were wrong. I think the blimp made it look differently. They all maintain that the drop was fine, including the playing partner.

26 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

But I'd still like the walk back out of the rules.  I don't think players ever should be put in the position of having to choose between a significant delay of game for everyone or following the rules.  Especially in the case of the unexpectedly lost ball.  Its already a kick in the groin. 

They aren't… if they play a provisional.

And what if they play a wrong ball and notice on the green? There are other scenarios, too, where a player will have to delay the game to follow the rules. The thing is, though… they should also be able to make up that time pretty easily.

34 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Perhaps a drop where the ball was last seen (not where you think it would have come to rest), with a 2 stroke penalty.  If you hit it into the rough, you're dropping in the rough--not within 80 inches of the rough--with 2 strokes.

So your ball is last seen flying toward a super thick stand of trees and bushes… you get to drop on the perimeter because it was last seen there?

And what if it bounces 100 yards backward?

24 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I'd like to see a drop and take two rule for casual play only.

People already do that now.

And that's fine by me… so long as they follow the Rules when it's a tournament. I don't care what people do in their casual rounds.

[Fourputt]

51 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Well that's the question.  The penalty has to eliminate the possibility that the player is better off taking a drop than provisional.  Perhaps a drop where the ball was last seen (not where you think it would have come to rest), with a 2 stroke penalty.  If you hit it into the rough, you're dropping in the rough--not within 80 inches of the rough--with 2 strokes.

 

Its not perfect.  But I'm not sure that spot is any less certain than trying to gauge whether a ball 200 yards away, in the air, moving at 75mph on a curving path crossed an invisible OB line.  Particularly from the vantage point of the tee,which is the one of the hardest places from which to make that judgment. 

I've had cases, more frequently as I get older, where I lose sight of the flight of the ball 20 yards off the tee.  Should I have to drop and play under a 2 stroke penalty there, when I used to be able to play again from the tee under a one stroke penalty?

52 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Yes, but guessing happens in water hazards too. Even Tiger's and his playing partners were way off as to where his ball crossed the hazard in the 2013 Players tournament.

 

One local course deals with this by turning the entire perimeter of the course into a hazard using red stakes. They have a local rule that there is no out-of-bounds. Personally, I don't like that solution.

I don't  think changing this rule will make much of a difference in time saved anyway. The players who take the most time either:

1. Spend 15 minutes looking for their ball even if it's out of bounds, or so deep in a hazard there's no chance of finding it.

2. Don't know the stroke-and-distance rule, and drop it near the out-of-bounds area anyway.

In Tiger's case the blimp view was a case of perspective distortion.  Even though it seemed like the shot was from straight above, it was not, and the distortion caused by the viewing angle made it look different from what it actually was.

For your second point, those players don't follow the rules now and there is no reason to believe that a new rule book will change their philosophy.  You don't write new rules and change the game to suit the playing style of players who have shown that they don't care anyway.

[dsc123]

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

They aren't… if they play a provisional.

And what if they play a wrong ball and notice on the green? There are other scenarios, too, where a player will have to delay the game to follow the rules. The thing is, though… they should also be able to make up that time pretty easily.

I was talking about the unexpectedly lost ball.  As I mentioned before, of course everyone should always play a provisional when they think the ball is lost.  And the penalty needs to be such that players would have the incentive to do so.

I'm not sure about the wrong ball scenario.  What is the current rule?  Replay from the spot where you last hit your own ball with a 2 stroke penalty?  In your scenario I don't know how you'd enforce that either without knowing when you made the mistake.

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

So your ball is last seen flying toward a super thick stand of trees and bushes… you get to drop on the perimeter because it was last seen there?

And what if it bounces 100 yards backward?

Well, again, I'm talking about the unexpectedly lost ball.  So if you last saw it flying towards a thick stand of trees, then its not unexpected that its lost and you hit a provisional. 

But sure, the cavalier player who sees his ball heading towards trouble and is nevertheless certain it is not lost and doesn't hit a provisional.  That guy drop it where he last saw it.  So in your scenario where you see the ball "flying towards" the trees, did the player see it go in the trees then disappear?  If so, he drops in the trees with a 2 stroke penalty.  Or did he last see it land short of the trees and think it stopped?  If so, he drops there, with a 2 stroke penalty.  I suppose the "flaw" is that if you hit a terrific tee shot but can't find it, you might prefer to lie 3 from that spot than hit again.  So sure, its not perfect, but I don't know anyone who would hit what they think is a great shot and be happy to have it count as 3. 

But this is just one idea.  Perhaps some "reasonably certain" analysis as in the hazard rules could help. 

I'm not claiming to have the perfect rule.  I just think there is likely to be a possible fair solution short of walking back to the tee. 

27 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I've had cases, more frequently as I get older, where I lose sight of the flight of the ball 20 yards off the tee.  Should I have to drop and play under a 2 stroke penalty there, when I used to be able to play again from the tee under a one stroke penalty?

No, you'd hit a provisional just as you would now. 

The scenario you propose works no better under the current rule.  Do you just hit provisional after provisional until you're able to see the ball come to a rest, then go looking for all your balls to see if you can find your first, second, or third? 

I would probably write it such that the ball is played where it is last seen.  So your opponent can tell you where they last saw it.  We're emphasizing the trust in your opponent anyway.

Edited March 2, 2017 by dsc123

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I'm not sure about the wrong ball scenario.  What is the current rule?  Replay from the spot where you last hit your own ball with a 2 stroke penalty?

No, you have to find your ball or it's lost, and even though you may have putted out, technically you might be returning to the tee or the last place from which you hit your ball (for sure).

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Well, again, I'm talking about the unexpectedly lost ball.  So if you last saw it flying towards a thick stand of trees, then its not unexpected that its lost and you hit a provisional.

You can't make a rule that depends on whether it's "unexpected" or not.

"Oh, that's unexpected… I'll drop way up here."

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

But sure, the cavalier player who sees his ball heading towards trouble and is nevertheless certain it is not lost and doesn't hit a provisional.  That guy drop it where he last saw it.  So in your scenario where you see the ball "flying towards" the trees, did the player see it go in the trees then disappear?  If so, he drops in the trees with a 2 stroke penalty.

Nah. That stinks.

First, he won't drop "in" the trees. He'll drop on the edge. And his ball could have rebounded 60 yards backward, who knows…?

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

So sure, its not perfect, but I don't know anyone who would hit what they think is a great shot and be happy to have it count as 3.

Lots of people would be happy to have a ball in play well down the hole rather than have to tee off again and risk losing another or hitting it worse.

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I'm not claiming to have the perfect rule.  I just think there is likely to be a possible fair solution short of walking back to the tee. 

I don't see it.

And FWIW, this isn't really the place for this. They have the proposed rules, we aren't really debating new rules or changes.

[dsc123]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can't make a rule that depends on whether it's "unexpected" or not.

"Oh, that's unexpected… I'll drop way up here."

That's not what anyone was talking about.  But I'm not going to summarize the progress of the discussion to explain that.  Same goes for the other responses. 

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, dsc123 said:

That's not what anyone was talking about.  But I'm not going to summarize the progress of the discussion to explain that.  Same goes for the other responses. 

Sure it is. You can't make a rule about what happens when a player walks ahead because they didn't expect to lose their golf ball just because you think it's dumb that he has to go back to the tee (or wherever). Particularly when the rules don't penalize the player if he has a reason to play a provisional. Even fewer people would hit a provisional than do now.

But again, this isn't really the topic here.

Start a new topic if you want to propose something else… but again, for casual play, who cares what people do? In tournament play, go back to the tee.

[onthehunt526]

The rundown I saw of the "modernized" rules is great for the game.

The "ready golf" to help pace of play is a big one. 

I like the fix anything on the greens rule as well.

Accidently touching the sand penalty is also good. As long as you aren't testing the surface.

DMD's being legal is another good one. We live in an age of technology it is time we embraced it. (Local Rule can still prohibit their use in competition)

Water hazards and lateral hazards will be "penalty areas". I like that definition much better than the previous one.

Three minutes to find a lost ball instead of five, and the option after "leaving" the area of the original spot and coming back to hit a provisional will speed up play.

The news sports broadcast and music being "allowed" is another good one. 

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

the option after "leaving" the area of the original spot and coming back to hit a provisional will speed up play.. 

That's quite a significant one and the first time I've seen it mentioned anywhere.

[onthehunt526]

@Rulesman

Toward the bottom on this page.

https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-new-rules-of-golf/amp.

Under "Other proposed changes" or something to that effect.

[sjduffers]

Just a quick comment to note that I support this effort and pretty much would agree with everything (maybe with a small reticence for a couple of items and voiced them in the feedback survey), except for the flagstick in rule while putting on the green: it changes the putting game quite a bit, especially for short putts, and has the potential of worsening the pace of play instead of improving it, as some other folks have pointed out. I hope that change does not make it into the 2019 rules.

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

@Rulesman

Toward the bottom on this page.

https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-new-rules-of-golf/amp.

Under "Other proposed changes" or something to that effect.

Yes, I had in fact read it. But but previously no one had commented on it in this or other forums.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Rulesman

[iacas]

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

The expectation is that the rules will see massive, sweeping changes that greatly simplify and reduce the number and complexity of the Rules of Golf. Reportedly some of the changes may be:

From the first post… let's see how the rumors shook out:

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• All water hazards will have four options (play it as it lies, stroke and distance, line back from last crossed point, two clublengths).

For the most part that's accurate, though we still have yellow "penalty areas." Give it a B.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Dropping may be eliminated.

Give that one a C for effort. Not quite, but drastically changed, and the need to re-drop and the ability for a drop to substantially change the position of the ball was changed quite a bit too.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Measuring anything via clublengths may be eliminated (it will be interesting to see how that works if so…).

A.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Stroke play penalties will apply to match play, with the score coming at the end of the hole.

Nope. Didn't happen. They did simplify penalties, though: they're either one stroke (I think) in both forms of play, or the "General Penalty" which is 2 strokes or loss of hole. So because it's simplified, I'll give it a D, because the area was changed, but not much like was rumored.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Bunkers will be treated very differently (ability to move loose impediments, possibly take practice swings or ground clubs?)

A. Almost a B, but the rumors said possibly, and touching the sand with your club or hand is where I can see people thinking maybe you could take practice swings).

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Kinder, gentler rules (like the 18-2 Local Rule) that relies more on player integrity to determine intent and fault.

A. I think we see this throughout, most obviously where you can kick your ball when searching for it, move it on the putting green accidentally, etc.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• DMDs may be acceptable by rule for all rounds.

A.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Three (3) minutes for search instead of five (5).

A.

On 2/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, iacas said:

• Could look very similar to http://simplegolfrules.com/CodeTwo/?showfile=CodeTwo.html minus the "points" system.

Leaning toward giving that one a B. It's pretty similar.

All told… 5 As, 2 Bs, a C, and a D.

And I'll give the flagstick thing an F, just because.

[onthehunt526]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

From the first post… let's see how the rumors shook out:

For the most part that's accurate, though we still have yellow "penalty areas." Give it a B.

Give that one a C for effort. Not quite, but drastically changed, and the need to re-drop and the ability for a drop to substantially change the position of the ball was changed quite a bit too.

A.

Nope. Didn't happen. They did simplify penalties, though: they're either one stroke (I think) in both forms of play, or the "General Penalty" which is 2 strokes or loss of hole. So because it's simplified, I'll give it a D, because the area was changed, but not much like was rumored.

A. Almost a B, but the rumors said possibly, and touching the sand with your club or hand is where I can see people thinking maybe you could take practice swings).

A. I think we see this throughout, most obviously where you can kick your ball when searching for it, move it on the putting green accidentally, etc.

A.

A.

Leaning toward giving that one a B. It's pretty similar.

All told… 5 As, 2 Bs, a C, and a D.

And I'll give the flagstick thing an F, just because.

You don't like the flagstick rule proposal?

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

You don't like the flagstick rule proposal?

Not at all.