Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[iacas]

This is for the discussion of this portion of the new Modernized Rules.

Areas of the Course

When to Replace a Ball That Moves on the Putting Green

Repairing Damage on the Putting Green

Touching Line of Play on a Putting Green

Ball Played From Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole

Areas the Committee May Mark as Penalty Areas

Touching or Moving Loose Impediments or Touching the Ground in a Penalty Area

Expanded Use of Red-Marked Penalty Areas

Elimination of Opposite Side Relief for Red Penalty Areas

Moving or Touching Loose Impediments or Touching Sand in a Bunker

Unplayable Ball in Bunker

[Pete]

With regard to the new unattended flag stick rule, if I want the flagstick in and my playing partner wants it out, we could be pulling it out, and putting it back in depending on who's putting. This could cause a delay in play rather than speed it up. I suppose I could just putt out with the flag in and then take it out for my playing partner to putt out.

However if that means standing on my playing partner's line, they I'd have to mark it, pull the flag, let him putt, put the flag back in, take my putt etc.

Or do you think golfers will simply never play with the flagstick out? That would suit me.

[krupa]

9 minutes ago, Pete said:

Or do you think golfers will simply never play with the flagstick out? That would suit me.

The flagsticks never lean at the courses you play?  At my local course there are a lot of times where the flagstick is leaning and would keep the ball out of the hole.  Hitting it may not be a penalty but if it keeps the ball out of the hole, you still have to putt again, don't you?

[Pete]

Just now, krupa said:

The flagsticks never lean at the courses you play?  At my local course there are a lot of times where the flagstick is leaning and would keep the ball out of the hole.  Hitting it may not be a penalty but if it keeps the ball out of the hole, you still have to putt again, don't you?

Yeah of course. I'd probably still leave it in but adjust it first so it leans the other way. Basically, leaving it in has been proven to be an advantage, so I would want to always leave it in and wondered how big a problem this could be.

[cutchemist42]

So does this get rid of the rediculousness of the HD 100x zoomed in sandtrap incident?

[bkuehn1952]

Areas the Committee May Mark as Penalty Areas  - it will be interesting to me to see the guidelines issued by the USGA/R&A [not that guidelines from the USGA has ever stopped public courses from doing what they want].

I see a potential conflict between committee members Long John and Bunting Brian.  Bunting Brian prefers it if Long John has to hit three from the tee when his attempt at driving the green goes into that patch of native grasses 20 yards from the green.  Long John prefers dropping 20 yards from the green with a chance to save par.

Depending on the guidelines, this may tilt the game a bit more in favor of the long and slightly inaccurate hitter.

[krupa]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'd probably still leave it in but adjust it first so it leans the other way.

So not only could we hit it without penalty, we could adjust it for maximum advantage?  Makes me wonder if any pace-of-play advantage gained by not having to remove it is going to be lost by people messing with it.

[bkuehn1952]

A question for @iacas.  A course chooses to red stake significant areas of forest and wild grassland, where in the past "stroke & distance" was the likely outcome for an errant shot.  Will the course rating and/or slope drop a bit or do these changes matter little in the grand scheme of things?  Probably slope is more affected in any case, yes? 

[dsc123]

The flag stick rule is interesting.  As someone who often plays alone, I can see the benefit to pace of play.  Especially when facing long putts.  Then again, I don't think solo rounds technically count anymore anyway.  It certainly does not speed up play if one person likes it in and the other likes it out and they keep switching it. 

Is there an existing rule that tells us what happens if the ball gets wedged between the lip and the stick?

[Pete]

1 minute ago, krupa said:

So not only could we hit it without penalty, we could adjust it for maximum advantage?  Makes me wonder if any pace-of-play advantage gained by not having to remove it is going to be lost by people messing with it.

That's exactly my point. I would leave it in. I think an awful lot of people would, but some will insist on it being removed and I can see this as an issue. The different choices on leaving flag in or taking it out are demonstrated well in this thread: 

I hope they can keep this change whilst negating any cases of flag stick hokey cokey somehow. 

 

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Pete said:

With regard to the new unattended flag stick rule, if I want the flagstick in and my playing partner wants it out, we could be pulling it out, and putting it back in depending on who's putting. This could cause a delay in play rather than speed it up. I suppose I could just putt out with the flag in and then take it out for my playing partner to putt out.

However if that means standing on my playing partner's line, they I'd have to mark it, pull the flag, let him putt, put the flag back in, take my putt etc.

Or do you think golfers will simply never play with the flagstick out? That would suit me.

The flagstick rule, on first glance, is one i hope does NOT stick.

I'll be filing a note on that one.

I don't think taking the flagstick out is a significant cause of delay, and as you point out, taking it out and putting it back in can cause a significant delay.

One advantage if this rule perplexingly stays in place is that at least people will study the advantage more and properly conclude the flagstick in (so long as it's not leaning toward you a lot) helps the ball go in the hole more easily).

3 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

A question for @iacas.  A course chooses to red stake significant areas of forest and wild grassland, where in the past "stroke & distance" was the likely outcome for an errant shot.  Will the course rating and/or slope drop a bit or do these changes matter little in the grand scheme of things?  Probably slope is more affected in any case, yes? 

Yes. It would affect slope and course rating.

Right now, for example, even if a course puts red lines around an area of thick trees we ignore it and create it as an area likely to lead to lost balls. Now we'll have to consider it and rate it as less severe.

3 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

Is there an existing rule that tells us what happens if the ball gets wedged between the lip and the stick?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

I hope they can keep this change whilst negating any cases of flag stick hokey cokey somehow. 

How?

I hope they can this change.

[krupa]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

That's exactly my point. I would leave it in. I think an awful lot of people would, but some will insist on it being removed and I can see this as an issue. The different choices on leaving flag in or taking it out are demonstrated well in this thread

I agree that leaving the flagstick in is an advantage, especially from off the green. 

You say, "I would leave it in", but you wouldn't... not really.  You'd leave it in and adjust its position if necessary.  

19 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'd probably still leave it in but adjust it first so it leans the other way.

I have two problems with that.  One, you're not longer playing the course as you find it.  Two, pace of play would drop because everyone is adjusting the flagstick for their putt. 

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

I hope they can keep this change whilst negating any cases of flag stick hokey cokey somehow. 

How?

I hope they can this change.

I hoped they would keep it because for a while I would benefit from it whilst others still chose to take the flag out. But yeah, for the pace of play issues it could (ironically) cause, ditching the change may be for the best.

I suppose when everyone understands that there is an advantage to leaving it in, perhaps it will eventually be normal that the flag always stays in the hole, maybe? 

 

Edit: Flagsticks that are permanently attached to the base and are built to not lean at all! Problem solved 

Edit 2: By the way, this is actually a good idea, but is perhaps a little too drastic for now. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Pete

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

One advantage if this rule perplexingly stays in place is that at least people will study the advantage more and properly conclude the flagstick in (so long as it's not leaning toward you a lot) helps the ball go in the hole more easily).

Even if the flagstick rule stays in the final version, it would certainly be revisited if and when new data becomes available.  This is the only rule change in this section that I dislike significantly

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right now, for example, even if a course puts red lines around an area of thick trees we ignore it and create it as an area likely to lead to lost balls. Now we'll have to consider it and rate it as less severe.

I know you do course ratings.  Have you heard whether the current course ratings system is being evaluated in light of the proposed rules changes?

[NCGolfer]

28 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

So does this get rid of the rediculousness of the HD 100x zoomed in sandtrap incident?

Nope.  They specifically said that the Anna Nordqvist ruling would not have changed.  The bunker is not a "penalty area".

[Fourputt]

32 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yeah of course. I'd probably still leave it in but adjust it first so it leans the other way. Basically, leaving it in has been proven to be an advantage, so I would want to always leave it in and wondered how big a problem this could be.

Unless they change that too, you are not allowed to lean the flagstick in any particular direction.  The way it reads now is that if the flagstick is leaning, you may straighten it.  You may not lean it in a way that is favorable to your shot.  

[cutchemist42]

2 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Nope.  They specifically said that the Anna Nordqvist ruling would not have changed.  The bunker is not a "penalty area".

Ah okay, read it wrong. I still hate the era of HD cameras but it not being uniform across a whole tourney on every golfer.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Unless they change that too, you are not allowed to lean the flagstick in any particular direction.  The way it reads now is that if the flagstick is leaning, you may straighten it.  You may not lean it in a way that is favorable to your shot.  

You know what I mean. All I'm talking about is rotating the flag stick so the ball can fit in, typically this means rotating it 180 degrees so it no longer leans towards me.