USGA's Davis Floats Idea of Reduced Distance Balls

[Spooky]

Lol....you're probably right... 

[Jack Watson]

1 hour ago, 1badbadger said:

 

I honestly don't think so.  Balata balls spun way too much, they were inconsistent, they weren't always as round as they should be and I'm sure modern grooves would shred the cover.  The big thing is the spin...it's harder to control the trajectory and distance with that much excessive spin.

I am not sure it's that cut and dried.  I think an argument could be made that professionals could use this to their advantage on approach.

The reason I ask is I played a couple rounds with a pro who was teaching me at the time and he claimed it was very different with balata compared to now.  He claimed stuffing it tight was easier with the older ball.

Watching this guy strike it in the wind was very cool-in crosswind he would hold it up against the breeze.  Worked it both ways and everything that I saw and he was very into shot trajectory-he wasn't impressively long but had very good striking.  When I played with him we both used vintage gear also which was fun.

I have read many comments from different people online who played the old stuff and the general consensus I gathered is that the modern gear ball combo tends to like to go straighter.  Maybe the older balls 'responsiveness' to subtle changes in face angle and path could be used as an advantage by a real striking master.

 

 

 

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It's hard to argue against stats but take for example Lefty vs Stenson at the open.  Henriks putter got him the win.

Hmmmm. I beg to differ.

http://www.theopen.com/playerstats/fulllist#!/gir?group=1 - Henrik was first in GIR. Phil was T3.

http://www.theopen.com/playerstats/fulllist#!/lowputavg?group=5 - Henrik tied with Phil in Putts/Round.

http://www.theopen.com/playerstats/fulllist#!/threeputts?group=5 Mickelson had fewer three-putts than Henrik.

http://www.theopen.com/playerstats/fulllist#!/oneputts?group=5 Mickelson had more one-putts than Henrik.

Henrik's ballstriking won it for him.

7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Stats are accumulated over a time period,  but in one round on tour it often seems like getting hot with the putter is the difference.

The winner of the event is usually the best putter out of the best ball-strikers (that week). But the hot putter who is having an average or off week putting generally isn't even really in the top ten.

Ball-striking is far more important, even in wins.

7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It seems like watching Spieth at the Masters that he holes a lot of crucial putts.  In 1986 at the Masters final round Jack made some awesome putts.

Jack hit it to 12 feet in two on 15. He hit it to 3 feet on 16. He hit it to about 14 feet on 17. He hit it close on 9, 10, and 11 too IIRC (he bogeyed 12… because he missed the green).

His ballstriking gave him makeable putts.

7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

At the pro level these days it seems like they all get a lot of birdie looks and it just seems like guys who are hot with the putter do better.  I can't really back this up with stats.  To me some putts are more important than others which statistically makes no sense at all!  (Talking pro level golf)

The statistics are pretty clear, and they don't support your theories here.

Not the topic here, so… I encourage you to explore the many other threads here that discuss the relative importance of different areas of the game.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

The reason I ask is I played a couple rounds with a pro who was teaching me at the time and he claimed it was very different with balata compared to now.  He claimed stuffing it tight was easier with the older ball.

I don't think he's right. The modern ball has more consistent spin characteristics, performs better in the wind, and is generally more predictable. You think Greg Norman wanted to rip that many balls off the front edge of all those greens? No.

[Jack Watson]

In point of fact what do I personally value more?  Ballstriking by a large margin.

The fact was going into the 14th hole final round Mickelsen and Henrik were tied. 

Stenson drains twenty footer for birdie.  Phil pars.

on fifteen Stenson bangs in a birdie from 50 feet.  Two shot lead to Henrik.

Henrik drains a twenty footer on 18 three shot win.

Imo being tied that late in a major and draining a fifty footer and a twenty footer gave him the victory on that day.

obviously none of this is even possible without the ballstriking.  I am just saying some putts mean more than others like when they are to take the lead or close out the match.

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

In point of fact what do I personally value more?  Ballstriking by a large margin.

The fact was going into the 14th hole final round Mickelsen and Henrik were tied. 

Stenson drains twenty footer for birdie.  Phil pars.

on fifteen Stenson bangs in a birdie from 50 feet.  Two shot lead to Henrik.

Henrik drains a twenty footer on 18 three shot win.

Imo being tied that late in a major and draining a fifty footer and a twenty footer gave him the victory on that day.

obviously none of this is even possible without the ballstriking.  I am just saying some putts mean more than others like when they are to take the lead or close out the match.

Oh brother. That's not how that stuff works.

Back to the topic, now, please.

[lastings]

I think I would need a lot more information to address this topic.   

The biggest question would be, what is the distance difference between a 80's balata ball and today's ProV1?  

Is it the equipment that is changing the game and making courses obsolete, or is it simply player conditioning?   Would Ben Hogan hit the ball DJ length, given the same equipment?

From a fans standpoint, it is a bit frustrating that EVERYBODY is so long now.   It changes the game, and seems to mitigate the skill of being a great long-iron player.  

 

My guess is that ball has a great deal to do with it.  in 1995 when Daly won the Open, his avg. Driving distance was 289 yds.  which would be good enough for 93rd on the tour this year.  

DJ averages 30 more yards per drive than Daly in 1995.   I can't imagine that DJ is hitting the ball much harder than Daly was in '95. 

 

[woodzie264]

I don't know...I would agree with most here that I wouldn't like to see a flight/distance restricted ball played every week, BUT I could see it used in maybe 2-3 tournaments per season...like restrictor plate races in NASCAR. Sure, it would be more of a novelty, but on a few of the shorter courses, it might be a cool twist. 

[ZappyAd]

On 26/03/2017 at 0:00 AM, iacas said:

How would that be fair?

If you mean would it maintain the status quo and equally penalize all players so that their relative standings remain the same, then no, I don't think it would.  But it seems to me that any equipment constraint is going to affect different players by different amounts so whatever restriction you have in place will change the relative positions of players.  It is then only 'fair' in the sense that the same rules apply to everyone, even if the effects on their scoring are different.  I would guess that with the advances in data analysis in golf these days it is probably more likely that you can accurately assess the impact of any change compared with 20 years ago.

Take COR - my understanding is that by limiting COR at 1.5 you would be taking more distance off longer hitters than you would off shorter ones?  (I'm assuming COR * clubhead speed  is proportional to ball speed is proportional to distance and so Dustin J would lose more yards than Zach J by moving COR from say 2 to 1.5).  So simplistically that's unfair on DJ.  However, maybe the yards you take off Dustin are closer to the green and under Strokes Gained they are more/less valuable than the yards you take off Zach.  So maybe the calculations are more complicated than straight yards lost but ultimately one of them benefits relatively.

Maybe it is a similar situation with grooves and spin - if you have a very skilled wedge player who is really able to control spin then they might benefit more from really super non-conforming grooves than a player who is less spin aware.  Or they might benefit less if absolute level of spin is less important than simply being able to have it or not.  Point is that relatively their positions on the money list will probably be changed as a result of that rule.

So I think there is already precedent for making rules changes regarding equipment that impact 'unfairly' on individuals and doing something about the ball wouldn't really be that different.

[Groucho Valentine]

Hey if balls end up cheaper I'm all for it. Otherwise, leave the ball alone. A professional is always going to be able to bomb it 50 yards past you. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ZappyAd said:

Take COR - my understanding is that by limiting COR at 1.5 you would be taking more distance off longer hitters than you would off shorter ones?  (I'm assuming COR * clubhead speed  is proportional to ball speed is proportional to distance and so Dustin J would lose more yards than Zach J by moving COR from say 2 to 1.5).

No, they'd lose the same percentage. So it's fair.

What you were proposing further penalized the longer hitters by having them lose not only "more yards" (which they will under the above), but also a larger percentage.

[lastings]

Another question I would have is:   When DJ hits that crushing power fade these days, would that be a power fade with a Balata ball?   Or does the added spin with the Balata turn that into a slice -- losing distance and control, possibly forcing him to ease up and have a more controlled swing?  

[lastings]

Here's a stat I just noticed that I don't like:  

3 of the top leaders in Driving Distance on the Champions tour this year:  

John Daly - 301.4

Fred Couples - 295.9

Tom Lehman - 296.9

 

In 1995 when the 3 of them were in their prime, here is their average distance: 

Daly - 289.0 (-12.4)

Couples - 276.3 (-19.6)

Lehman - 264.8 (-32.1)

 

Between the 3 of them, they are averaging an additional 21.4 yards per drive.   All now over 50, in comparison to where they were hitting when they were 30 years old in their prime.   

but, I think something that is even more telling, and frustrating, is how close they are in driving distance.   Daly is averaging just 5 years more than Couples these days.   This may suggest that Daly is losing power at a faster rate than the other 2.  (seems unlikely, Daly still swings the heck out of that club.)   Or it might suggest that it's just much easier to be a long ball hitter these days.   everyone can swing a lot harder without fearing the same punishing consequences.   

 

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, lastings said:

Another question I would have is:   When DJ hits that crushing power fade these days, would that be a power fade with a Balata ball?   Or does the added spin with the Balata turn that into a slice -- losing distance and control, possibly forcing him to ease up and have a more controlled swing?  

 I think he would simply employ a different technique. Remember to that "backspin" increases as well. 

[lastings]

so...  that got me thinking.   maybe it's equipment.   (clubs, not balls).    the length of other, forced everyone to strength train harder.   Maybe its some other mitigating factor.  

So, I decided to narrow down my comparisons.   A quick google search on balls, and I found this.   

In 1999 players first stared using the Pro-V1, which was basically the first instance of the modern type of ball showing up on course.   Over the next few years players using those types of balls saw their average score significantly reduced (no stats to back it up, just a quote from what I read).   By the 2003 season the entire PGA had adopted the use of the modern style ball, with bu a couple holdouts.   so that said : 

1998 (Pre-Pro-V1) Average Driving Distance among the top 5 - 292.74

1998 Average Driving Distance among the top 30 - 282.85

2003 (With Pro V1) Average Driving distance among the top 5 - 309.98 (+17.24)

2003 (With Pro VI) Average driving distance among top 30 - 299.86 (+17.01)

 

now..   here's the kicker:  

 

2016 Average Driving Distance among the top 5 - 312.0 (+2.1 yds)

2016 Average driving distance among top 30 - 304.64 (+4.78 yds)

 

clearly, the ball created an additional 17 yds.   

every single other tech advancement, and strength, and conditioning in the 13 years since, has equated to about 2-5 yds. 

 

 

[lastings]

This is the first time I have every really thought about this.  I always assumed players were just getting bigger and strong.  and Tiger's dominance was influencing people to train differently.   

But, now that I have really started digging into this, I'm really coming to a different conclusion.   That ball is steroids for golf.   And, if all this extra distance is relegating some of the games greatest courses to Amateur only status, that ball is bad for the game.   

also, not only is it making the big hitters too long for the course, It's making everyone a big hitter.  Which really marginalizes the advantage the big hitters have.   It moves the top up, but also brings the middle of the field closer to the top.  

 

[1badbadger]

On 3/31/2017 at 2:21 PM, lastings said:

 In 1999 players first stared using the Pro-V1, which was basically the first instance of the modern type of ball showing up on course.   Over the next few years players using those types of balls saw their average score significantly reduced (no stats to back it up, just a quote from what I read).   By the 2003 season the entire PGA had adopted the use of the modern style ball, with bu a couple holdouts.   

I agree that the modern solid core ball had a major impact on driving distances, but just wanted to clarify a couple of points.

The Pro V1 was not one of the first solid core ball that was being played on Tour.  It actually didn't get put into tournament play until late 2000.  1 1/2 years earlier Mark O’Meara won the 1998 Masters with the Strata, which was a multi-layer, solid core model that was released in '96 or '97 I believe.  Tiger switched to the Tour Accuracy about a month before he won the 2000 U.S. Open.  Titleist was behind the 8-ball on this one.`

[David L Yskes]

i dont think a reduced flight ball needs to happen...    

adjusting the courses and making hazards in the normal landing zones will help... making a course " target " golf..   So golfer's are hitting 3 wood or irons off the tee instead of driver..   yea it's not flashy, but it does make for interesting golf

[billchao]

3 hours ago, David L Yskes said:

adjusting the courses and making hazards in the normal landing zones will help... making a course " target " golf..   So golfer's are hitting 3 wood or irons off the tee instead of driver..   yea it's not flashy, but it does make for interesting golf

That's not interesting to me, that's gimmicky. Good course design incorporates risk/reward with different options being available.

Plus, different players hit it different lengths, tee placement isn't the same from day to day, etc. I'm not sure how you would make that work.