I don't know anything about shafts

[lastings]

Looking for a bit of help here.  

It's about time that I get some new irons, and want to get fitted properly.   

I have a scheduled fitting next Tuesday (3/21), and I want to go in with a good knowledge base so I can ask the right questions.   

I am currently hitting Taylormade rocketballz, straight off the rack with the standard shafts.  I have never been fit for clubs before, and I've never tried playing with different shafts.  

After hitting a fair number of irons, I am currently eyeing Mizuno MP-25s, but Titleist AP2 and Callaway Apex are also in the running.  

 

Anyways, my question is this..   can someone give me a bit of a breakdown on different shaft options.  how one shaft will affect my swing rather than another.  if certain shafts are suited to different swings, swing paths, etc..  (obviously, I know to match regular, stiff, xtra stiff to swing speed, but that's the extent of my knowledge.)

 

I really want to do this right.  I intend to spend a decent amount on these clubs, so I want them to last a long time.  Want to be able to hit them today, but also want something I can grow into.   

 

 

[Club Rat]

Golf Shafts Buying Guide - Golf Shafts

The shaft of the golf club is often ignored when it comes to performance, but it is the engine of the golf club. The length, flex, torque, kick-point, weight and alignment of the shaft all have an effect on the performance of your golf club. What does this all mean? Let us explain...

Types of Golf Shafts

Steel Shafts

Steel shafts are stronger, more durable and generally less expensive than graphite and are made from carbon steel, although stainless steel is sometimes used.

Steel shafts do not experience the torque or lateral twisting found in all graphite shafts and therefore most players would benefit by having steel shafts in their irons. They offer more control on shots and have a greater emphasis on accuracy than distance than graphite shafts. Steel shafts do require a faster swing speed to generate the same distance as a graphite shaft. Steel shafts are recommended for players with normal swing speeds who could use a little extra control in their game.

There are two main types of steel shaft:

Stepped Steel Shafts

Stepped steel shafts are used to gradually reduce the diameter of the shaft from the wider butt end to the narrower tip end that goes into the hosel of the clubhead.

A steel strip is rolled into a tube and then mechanically drawn until the diameter and thickness is correct. The step pattern is then formed and the walls are made thinner at the tip and thicker at the top to produce the flexibility or kickpoints. The shaft is then hardened and straightened and finally chrome plated. This advanced manufacturing process offers consistency from shaft to shaft and gives the same stiffness throughout an entire set. Stepped steel shafts are used in the majority of golf clubs by all the major manufacturers.

Rifle Steel Shafts

The main difference with Rifle shafts is that the steel is smooth from top to bottom and has no steps.

The shaft design and construction uses different technologies to provide greater performance and consistency. Frequency Matching of each shaft perfectly matches the flex throughout a set of clubs using electronic calibration. Flexes in Rifle shafts can also be more exactly tailored for the average golfer as they use decimals to meaure stiffness (eg 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, etc). The stepless design technology eliminates the energy-robbing steps' found on most other steel shafts, which Rifle manufacturers claim provides greater accuracy. Some Rifle shafts offer 'flighted' versions that can produce variable ball trajectories for different clubs within a single set.

Shaft Technology

What is shaft flex?

Flex is the most important factor in the shaft as it affects distance and direction. Getting the correct flex in your golf equipment is of the utmost importance. The flex is a rating of a golf club shaft's ability to bend during the golf swing. All shafts, no matter how stiff, exhibit flex under the forces of the golf swing. A player with a very fast swing will require a shaft with less flex, while a player with a slower swing will need a shaft with greater flex.

Flex is generally rated as Extra Stiff (XS), Stiff(S), Firm(F), Regular(R), Senior(S), Amateur(A) and Ladies(L). The less the bend in a shaft, the more control a powerful swinger will have. On the other hand, beginners and those with less powerful swings generally use a shaft with greater flexibility. The average swing speed with a driver is from 65 miles per hour for the beginner up to over 100 miles per hour for powerful swingers.

Different shaft manufacturers have differences in their specifications of flex. One manufacturer’s regular flex might be another’s firm flex. There are 2 methods of measuring flex. The more traditional Shaft Deflection Board and the modern Frequency Analyzer. Both are effective in the measurement of flex. Stiffness defines the bending characteristics of the shaft when weight is applied. Frequency is another way of defining stiffness and indicates how fast a club will vibrate with that particular shaft. The stiffer the shaft the faster the vibration. If you have a low swing speed, more flexible shafts will propel the ball more at the downswing. If you have a high swing speed, a stiffer shaft avoids lagging clubheads.

What is shaft torque?

Torque is the twisting movement of the shaft during the golf swing. It is measured in degrees and shown as a rating that gives information about the 'twisting' characteristics. The higher the rating, the more the shaft twists and vice versa. The more torque a shaft has, the softer it will feel. A shaft with a 3 degree torque will feel much stiffer that one that has 5 degree torque. Every shaft, graphite or steel, has a certain amount of torque. Most steel shafts have up to about 3 degrees of torque. Torque however has a slight effect on ball trajectory, with the lower the torque, the lower the trajectory.

What is a shaft kick-point (Flex-point)?

This defines the point where the shaft bends and affects the trajectory of the shot. The effect is small but measurable. A shaft with a high kick-point will usually give a low shot trajectory and more of a "one-piece" feel to the shaft. A low Kick-point will usually give a high shot trajectory and a feeling of the shaft tip whipping the clubhead through.

Kick-point will also affect the feel of the shaft. Some club specialists will dispute this by saying that the Kick-point and bend-point are the same. Bend-point is the highest point of the shaft when it is bending by applying pressure to both ends of the shaft. Kick-point is the highest point the shaft is bending, by clamping down the grip and pressure is applied onto the club head, like in the swing. There will be some shafts where both bending points are similar or very close.

Weight of a shaft?

The weight is the actual weight of the raw, uncut shaft before installation, in grams. Lighter shafts mean lighter total weight and therefore the prospect of additional clubhead speed and more distance.

Alignment of a shaft?

Have you noticed that sometimes you will have a favorite club in a set of clubs that you just seem to hit better and more consistently than the others? This is most likely due to the fact that the spine in that club happens by chance to be correctly aligned in the club. The opposite is probably true for the club in the set that you can't seem to hit well at all!

Most golf shafts have some sort of minor irregularity in them that is inherent in the manufacturing process. This could be from the join of the shaft, the shaft not being perfectly round; the material of the shaft may be just slightly heavier on one side of the shaft than the other, or from an imperfection in the shaft material. This can cause the shaft to bend towards a certain point when you swing, causing the clubface to open or close.

You can get your clubs 'Spine Aligned' to sort this problem out. What they do is test the shaft to determine the characteristics of the golf shaft. Then the shaft can be installed so that the spine of the shaft is directly behind your target line. This way it does not affect the direction of your shot.

Parallel/Tapered Tip?

Parallel tip shafts are the same diameter for a specific distance up from the tip. Taper tip shafts reduce in diameter to a specific location on the shaft tip section. Taper tipped shafts and parallel tipped shafts do play similar to one another. The only difference between the two is tip diameter and weight. Taper tip shafts are constant weight, meaning that each shaft weighs the same from the long irons to the wedges. Parallel tip shafts have a descending weight through the set.

Pureing a shaft?

Pureing is a patented process that locates the most stable plane of the shaft, regardless of type or manufacturing process. Using a number of mathematical formulas, Pure computer software reveals how round, how straight and how stiff each shaft is and allows the operator to mark the dominant orientation that is most consistent. By installing each shaft so that the marked area is placed in a neutral position, every shaft or club within a set will have the exact same Plane of Uniform Repeatability (PURE). PUREing does not rely on human judgement – it is a science that is accurate to less than 1 degree.

Is shaft length important?

Once the shaft is installed, you must then determine the proper length. This is just as important as flex, torque or anything else to do with the shaft. To determine the length of your club, stand up straight and have someone measure from the crease where your wrist and hand meet to the floor. Do this with both hands and take an average. It is critical that the irons be cut at a length that is suitable to that particular player’s height & distance from their hands to the floor.

The importance of length, according to research, is extreme: Ball impact that is 0.5 inches off-centre equates to a 7% loss of carry distance. An impact that is 1 inch off-centre equates to a 14% loss of carry distance. So, while longer shafts can certainly provide greater overall distance, the key to choosing the right driver is finding the longest one that provides a repeating, solid hit.

The following table shows what length of shafts you should consider for certain heights. If the crease where your wrist and hand meet to the floor is:

29-32 inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 37 inches

33-34 inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 37 1/2 inches

35-36 inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 38 inches

37-38 inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 38 1/2 inches

39-40 inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 39 inches

41 or more inches, your irons should be based on a 5-iron length of 39 1/2 inches

The length of the shaft is measured from the top of the grip to the base of the heel of the club as it lies on the ground.

Don't guess, get custom fitted

In recent years, custom fitting has been brought to the forefront of the golfing public's mind. What once was reserved for Tour players and the best amateurs is now available to any golfer who's willing to spend the time and money to get a properly fitted set of clubs. With today’s technology and vast amount of products to examine, an experienced club fitter can truly solve the shaft mystery. Custom fitting can be done with woods, irons, wedges and even putters from most manufacturers. Fitters will work with you to decide the custom fit lie angles, face angles, lofts, lengths, swing weights and other options.

For the intrepid golfer, custom fitting is the passport to better golf. A comprehensive custom fitting process will usually go through a 4 step system that includes static fitting, dynamic fitting, ball flight analysis and ongoing analysis. The first step, static fitting, requires the golfer to record his or her physical characteristics, including height, wrist-to-floor measurement, hand length and finger length. These pieces of information give the fitter an idea of what club length, lie angle and grip size might be appropriate.

Next, the golfer goes through a dynamic fitting, which consists of actually hitting golf balls with face tape attached to the club. During this process, the fitter observes the golfer's swing motion, posture, clubhead speed, level of flexibility and swing path. All of this information, including the location of the face hits, is used to help determine what club makeup works with the individual's physical ability.

After the dynamic fitting, a ball flight observation session follows in which the fitter works with the golfer on the range to fine-tune the fit of the club. The curvature of shots, the trajectory, carry distance and general flight characteristics are all carefully observed and discussed until both the fitter and golfer are convinced that the proper club and shaft specifications have been determined for optimal tee-box performance. Sometimes this aspect of fitting is done on indoor state of the art simulators.

Finally, an ongoing observation process, in which the golfer carefully notes his or her performance with the chosen driver and reports back to the fitter (if necessary) is used. This information is discussed, and any necessary adjustments can be made to correct the problem. This portion of the fitting process is considered extremely important because the goal of a fitted and custom-built club is to provide optimum performance over a long period of time. Without an ongoing process, this goal isn't always met.

Custom fitting may well increase the cost of your set of clubs, but the benefits in terms of performance (and not changing clubs so often) are worth the extra money.

[DaveP043]

38 minutes ago, lastings said:

Anyways, my question is this..   can someone give me a bit of a breakdown on different shaft options.  how one shaft will affect my swing rather than another.  if certain shafts are suited to different swings, swing paths, etc..  (obviously, I know to match regular, stiff, xtra stiff to swing speed, but that's the extent of my knowledge.)

I really want to do this right.  I intend to spend a decent amount on these clubs, so I want them to last a long time.  Want to be able to hit them today, but also want something I can grow into.   

@Club Rat has provided a lot of information, more than I actually wanted to read at the moment.   In my defense, I'm not looking for new clubs, so I'm not all the interested in understanding all of the variables right now.  What I do know is that varying the length, the weight, the torsional and bending stiffnesses, the distribution of flex along the length of the shaft can produce significant variations in the performance of the club.  There are hundreds of shafts available, from dozens of manufacturers, so you'll have to trust your clubfitter to be knowledgeable about what's available.  I do know that when I got my AP2s a couple of years ago, going from a Dynamic Gold shaft to a KBS Tour shaft helped me to launch the ball a little higher.  What's important for you is to be able to communicate with your clubfitter.  Let him know what you're after (more distance, higher launch, more spin, etc.) and give him feedback on what you're feeling as you try each club and shaft.  Actual data, like from Trackman or other launch monitor, is a big part of fittings, but appearance and feel can be important too, and only you can provide that feedback to the fitter.

[Buckeyebowman]

You say you don't know much about shafts, lastings? Join the club! While there are many objective measurements one can make on a golf club, like loft angle, lie angle, length, overall weight, swingweight, grip diameter, etc., you can't do that for shaft flex! Every shaft manufacturer is free to describe their shafts in any manner they see fit! This includes overall flex, flex profile, kick points, etc.

This from Tom Wishon, noted club designer and authority. In fact, at one time he made an effort to introduce some standardization in club shaft descriptions. He got beat over the head so much he dropped the attempt!

So, in your case you will kind of be at the mercy of the clubfitter, so DaveP's suggestion about communicating with your fitter is well taken.

This is going to rely a lot on your feel! Some clubshafts will transmit a very "pure" feel to your hands. You can tell exactly where on the clubface you hit the ball, if it went right or left, low or high, etc. I like to say these shafts "communicate" well with your hands. Some will feel "loosey, goosey". You don't know what is going on. Some will feel "boardy", extremely hard and no feedback.

Sorry to be so imprecise, but that's the deal with shafts. It's all about feel!

[Denny Bang Bang]

11 hours ago, lastings said:

After hitting a fair number of irons, I am currently eyeing Mizuno MP-25s, but Titleist AP2 and Callaway Apex are also in the running.  

I play the MP-25 (w/ S300 shafts), great iron.  Of course, try several.  Go with what you like best, then narrow it down to an appropriate shaft.

10 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I do know that when I got my AP2s a couple of years ago, going from a Dynamic Gold shaft to a KBS Tour shaft helped me to launch the ball a little higher.

I experienced this as well when being fit, the KBS Tour shaft launched the ball higher.

[Typhoon92]

Where are u getting fit?  I just get worried, especially if someone doesn't have a lot of knowledge...from my experience you need to stay away from Dick's, Golfsmith, Golf Galaxy. 

 

Look at the Golf Digest top 100 fitters and go to one of them.  They will look at things like transition, release, tempo...things that are not showing up on a launch monitor...that's how a clubfitter knows the type of shafts to try with u.  Big box stores...you don't get that.

[Jack Watson]

Every time I have been fit save for one I was told I need stiffer shafts.

I just like reg.  So easy and smooth to load without swinging like I am trying to blast it.

The best fitup I have ever had came from a great pro who said you can still swing hard with reg.  With stiffer you HAVE to swing hard.  This guy fit me outside with Trackman.

For me I now KNOW I play best with what I play now which is a 'reg' graphite in irons hybrids and driver.  I don't bag fairway woods.

The reason I don't go stiffer is I react to stiffness by getting quick trying to feel the load.  Over time it screws my swing up.  I lived it after listening to bad advice.

Ive used more flexible gear for a couple years now and no problems with the swing.

fwiw my dispersion is tighter with a shaft that's 'wrong' for my ss.

I am not a bomber if I max out driver at sea level it'll carry 260 or so.  I have gps drives on course at max 290 with a good roll out in summer(no wind in face). For me sometimes you have to insist to try what you want in a fitting.  It really is very tough to really get right the first try or two.  Numbers are numbers and feel is feel.  

Imo play what feels best to you.  No need to push it with gear a bit stiff.  Could lead to full swing tension even yips.

cheers

[lastings]

3 hours ago, Typhoon92 said:

Where are u getting fit?  I just get worried, especially if someone doesn't have a lot of knowledge...from my experience you need to stay away from Dick's, Golfsmith, Golf Galaxy. 

 

Look at the Golf Digest top 100 fitters and go to one of them.  

Going to 2nd swing golf in Minnetonka, MN..  which is listed as a Golf Digest top 100.  The guys over there seem really knowledgeable, and they all speak highly of the guy I'm going to.    I feel pretty confident about it.  Hopefully it will work out.. 

[Typhoon92]

Excellent...go in with an open mind.  Only thing I usually tell them is my preference on shaft weight.

After my fittings I like to look up info on the top couple of shafts and see how they are different or similar to each other and think of my own swing.

[WUTiger]

@Club Rat gave  you a solid primer on shaftology.

One thing which sometimes gets lost in the shuffle: Shaft flex and shaft weight should be considered separately.

In my Cobra FlyZ hybrid, I have a 75-gram Light (Senior) flex shaft. My old hybrid was the Adams V4, with a 60-gram R-flex shaft. The V4 was fine the first season I had it, but then I started moving through the ball better and got a lot of left misses. A club fitter saw me hit a couple of baseline shots with my Adams, and then handed me the Cobra. After about 4 shots, I was starting to get into the groove.

On my own, I would never have guessed anyone made a heavier, Senior flex shaft.

You have to find out what works. All my other club shafts are R-flex.

So, just a note: Don't be afraid to consider shaft weight and flex separately.

[Release]

Variables to be considered when answering your question.

There is no industry standard for shaft flex,  In honesty, there could not be an out of the box answer, because the weight , flex point, flex ( calculated by CPM at tip and butt, someone even measures the mid section frequency ).... all makes one shaft feels different than the other. Since there is no standard way to manufacture the golf shafts, there would not be a standardized way to measure the characters the shaft produces.

Plus a big factor which will change with time - you.  Your physical condition will change with time, and the frequency of changes increases with age.  I played basically the same set up from my late 20's into my early 40's , but need to change the set up every several years after my 55th birthday.

So there is no one set up that will last forever.

If you are serious about the golf equipment and have the budget, find a reputable fitter whom will listen and take the time to fit you.  More importantly, the fitting should come with one or several tune-up within 3 months after your initial fitting.  A good fitter should understand the "fitting in the studio" is not entirely the same as on course experience.  This will probably be the quickest and the most efficient way to find the equipment which will fit your current game.

 

. 

[1badbadger]

I happen to know a little bit about shafts, so maybe I can help.

One thing that I would suggest thinking about before your fitting is what you are wanting to accomplish.  Have some specific ideas about what your goals are with your new irons.  For example, are you looking for something a little more forgiving than your current set, or are you wanting a higher performance iron that will allow you to start shaping your shots more?  Are you looking for a higher trajectory or a more piercing trajectory?  Do you prefer a heavier feeling shaft or are you thinking about moving to a lighter weight model?  These are examples of things to think about before you get to your fitting because it will help your fitter know which direction to go in, and it just helps to have a clear picture in your mind...a lot of guys who are in the market know they want new clubs, but they don't know why.

In terms of shafts, there are many options available, and it can seem overwhelming.  This chart doesn't have all the shafts on the market, just the options that we offered when I was with Bridgestone.  It makes it easier to visualize how some of these shafts stack up to others so you can wrap your head around this:

Remember...everyone swings the club a little different, so use this chart as a guideline and not the bible.  Here is a quick crash course on some stuff that might help:

• A high kick-point shaft hits the ball low.  A low kick-point shaft hits the ball high.

• There are absolutely no standards in the golf industry for how stiff any of the shaft flex codes are. Every golf company and shaft company is free to determine how stiff their various shaft flex letter codes are to be. As a result it is very common for the R Flex from one company to be similar in stiffness to the S Flex from another company or the A Flex from a third company. Not only that, but it is very common for a flex in one model of shaft to be stiffer or more flexible than the same letter flex in a different shaft model from the same company.

• The shaft can have an effect on launch angle, trajectory and spin rate. How much of an effect the shaft has will vary from player-to-player depending on variables like clubhead speed, tempo, and how the player releases the club.

Hope this helps.

[WUTiger]

On 4/1/2017 at 11:18 PM, 1badbadger said:

There are absolutely no standards in the golf industry for how stiff any of the shaft flex codes are. Every golf company and shaft company is free to determine how stiff their various shaft flex letter codes are to be. ...

1BB,

Do you know if anyone has done an update on the table (circa 2011) which gave the FCM ratings for different shafts? The FCM ratings were used attempt to compare shaft flexes across models/OEMs, The table also gauged FMC changes resulting from hardstepping and softstepping.

[1badbadger]

19 hours ago, WUTiger said:

1BB,

Do you know if anyone has done an update on the table (circa 2011) which gave the FCM ratings for different shafts? The FCM ratings were used attempt to compare shaft flexes across models/OEMs, The table also gauged FMC changes resulting from hardstepping and softstepping.

No, I'm not aware of any recent updates on the FCM chart.