Rotating the wrists to straighten a drive: can't do it

[b101]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

 

That's just what it's called. Push is just referring to the start line. If you want to hit a draw you should have the face aimed right of the target.

 

And it was just as wrong back then 

 

Love the way that even when I think I'd understood it, watching the video just gives me that little bit more. Thanks @mvmac!

[Buckeyebowman]

23 hours ago, mvmac said:

 

That's just what it's called. Push is just referring to the start line. If you want to hit a draw you should have the face aimed right of the target.

 

And it was just as wrong back then 

 

Is that top photo Nicklaus? Kinda looks like him. I was wondering because of a comment Johnny Miller made during the telecast of the Shell Houston Open when they were promoing the Golf Channel three part series "Jack".

Miller said that Nicklaus never rolled his wrists or clubhead through impact like a lot of players do. He said Jack kept the clubface square a good two feet after impact! He had strong legs and enormous thighs that allowed him to generate a lot of power from the ground up.

It's sometimes easy to forget what an awesome rip Nicklaus could take until you look at some old footage. Makes you wonder what he might have done with modern equipment when he was in his prime. But, I guess he did OK! 

[gregsandiego]

I'm curious what you guys would have me tell an instructor that firmly believes in the suppination method.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

I'm curious what you guys would have me tell an instructor that firmly believes in the suppination method.

i wouldn't have much to say to him. I suspect there'd be little or nothing to gain in having that conversation.

I think he's wrong to have you working on it.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

I'm curious what you guys would have me tell an instructor that firmly believes in the suppination method.

I basically agree with @iacas, the instructor is probably set in his ways so it's not going to do much good.

But if you want to give it a shot 

- "Why are we trying to fix an open club face by closing it, why not address why the face is open in the first place?"

- "Good players have the handle forward at impact, it seems that supination leads to the opposite happening, the club wiping across the ball and a higher overtaking rate. What am I missing?"

- "Wouldn't rolling the forearms on the downswing require me to have really good timing in order to hit a good shot?"

- "Did you know that this is actually supination

and not this?"

[gregsandiego]

23 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I basically agree with @iacas, the instructor is probably set in his ways so it's not going to do much good.

But if you want to give it a shot 

- "Why are we trying to fix an open club face by closing it, why not address why the face is open in the first place?"

- "Good players have the handle forward at impact, it seems that supination leads to the opposite happening, the club wiping across the ball and a higher overtaking rate. What am I missing?"

- "Wouldn't rolling the forearms on the downswing require me to have really good timing in order to hit a good shot?"

- "Did you know that this is actually supination

and not this?"

OK thanks. After thinking about this , It's probably not a good idea to debate the issues. And since I can't do it anyway  (the original point of this post) - I'll just leave it.

Edited April 4, 2017 by gregsandiego

[70sSanO]

A suggestion was made early on in this thread about possibly trying a slightly stronger grip.  I don't know if you have a weak, neutral, or strong grip already, but it might help.

I know that when my grip is too weak I tend to naturally rotate my wrists more and I leave the club face open.  If I have a stronger grip I don't rotate as much because I have essentially already rotated with my wrist some.

I'm no instructor, and expect to be corrected, but this seems to be valid for me when I start pushing everything right.

John

Edited April 5, 2017 by 70sSanO

[gregsandiego]

3 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

A suggestion was made early on in this thread about possibly trying a slightly stronger grip.  I don't know if you have a weak, neutral, or strong grip already, but it might help.

I know that when my grip is too weak I tend to naturally rotate my wrists more and I leave the club face open.  If I have a stronger grip I don't rotate as much because I have essentially already rotated with my wrist some.

I'm no instructor, and expect to be corrected, but this seems to be valid for me when I start pushing everything right.

John

My grip is comes off at the top so yeah, I guess it's on the weak side.

[70sSanO]

2 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

My grip is comes off at the top so yeah, I guess it's on the weak side.

By weak, I mean the position on the grip.  There is a V that is formed by the thumb and index finger.  Where is the V that is formed pointing?

My understanding is if it is straight up or slightly to the right eye/ear it is neutral.  If it is pointing anywhere to the left it is weak and if it is pointing to the left shoulder and beyond it is strong.

For me, it seems the weaker my grip the more I rotate the wrist on the backswing.  This means I have more rotation to get back square.  As I go with a stronger grip I seem to have  less rotation.  There is a balance because too strong and I'll hook and too neutral and I'll push/slice.

John

Edited April 5, 2017 by 70sSanO

[Ned_the_tortoise]

If you are coming into the the ball with an open club face obviously rotating the wrists will close it and prevent them going left. However, this does not address the underlying cause of the problem and therefore will make your results inconsistent as you are relying on balancing two factors in each swing (how much you leave the club open and then how much you close it again). You are much better off trying to understand what causes the shots to go right in the first place and preventing this fault from taking place. In my experience it is because hips become too disconnected from the body in the transition. Eliminating this disassociation is helpful and is related to maintaining a good tempo. But would need to see the swing to see if this would apply to you. 

[gregsandiego]

6 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

By weak, I mean the position on the grip.  There is a V that is formed by the thumb and index finger.  Where is the V that is formed pointing?

My understanding is if it is straight up or slightly to the right eye/ear it is neutral.  If it is pointing anywhere to the left it is weak and if it is pointing to the left shoulder and beyond it is strong.

For me, it seems the weaker my grip the more I rotate the wrist on the backswing.  This means I have more rotation to get back square.  As I go with a stronger grip I seem to have  less rotation.  There is a balance because too strong and I'll hook and too neutral and I'll push/slice.

John

So why do you refer to the position of the grip as strong, neutral, weak? It seems that should be called something else like left, center, right?

In any case, I don't know. I know Ben Hogan wrote a whole boring chapter on the grip. My amateur opinion is that it is over evaluated. But I'll take a look at the V thing. I remember in my first ever golf lessons they taught me that. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Ernest Jones]

2 hours ago, Ned_the_tortoise said:

If you are coming into the the ball with an open club face obviously rotating the wrists will close it and prevent them going left. However, this does not address the underlying cause of the problem and therefore will make your results inconsistent as you are relying on balancing two factors in each swing (how much you leave the club open and then how much you close it again). You are much better off trying to understand what causes the shots to go right in the first place and preventing this fault from taking place. In my experience it is because hips become too disconnected from the body in the transition. Eliminating this disassociation is helpful and is related to maintaining a good tempo. But would need to see the swing to see if this would apply to you. 

 

Good post. Find and fix the root cause, not the symptom.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

So why do you refer to the position of the grip as strong, neutral, weak? It seems that should be called something else like left, center, right?

Because it would be different for lefties?

Because "strong" and "weak" are how we've always (for a long, long time) referred to different grip positions.

[gregsandiego]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because it would be different for lefties?

Because "strong" and "weak" are how we've always (for a long, long time) referred to different grip positions.

Didn't realize that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

[Jack Watson]

My experience has been if I actively try to supinate the left wrist on the downswing I get a huge pull hook.  Death.

I don't know about Hogan but to his defense his exact words above are "begins to supinate at impact."  So maybe he meant the supination does occur but is seen primarily much later in the swing far after impact.  At impact it has only barely started.  BARELY!

I have seen instructors try to teach people the classic swing to right field and roll the wrists but I have never seen their students get better results from that misconception.

My experience when doing my best has been that I simply swing the clubhead through the ball and don't attempt to twist the shaft.  My experience of golf is best when I don't really try to guide the face at all going through impact.  I don't hold it off either when playing well.  My old bad shot was a tensing up at impact trying to hold the face square resulting in a shot dispersion with too much right in it for decent golf.  When doing my best  I allow it to happen.  I also don't think of the left at all if anything I am more aware of the right thumb finishing over the left shoulder and the 'weight' of the clubhead freely swinging through.  I don't feel a twisting shut manipulation on my good shots.  I am lucky for some reason I have never been one to stall my torso turn coming through.  If anything I have a fade bias imo due to turning the torso coming through and being a touch ahead of the clubhead with the torso.  Maybe a touch too much lateral head movement forward too.

The only things that work for me are simple things.  Free moving clubhead sans manipulation attempts etc.  I am not technical in terms of how I play at all.

From what I have seen in 80 percent of good swings compared to myself is that the good guys have the face much more square to even looking closed much earlier in the arc of the downswing.  It makes a ton of sense.

Good knowledge being spread here on that for sure.  It simplifies everything.  

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Jack Watson
Added death

[Release]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:09 PM, mvmac said:

On 4/2/2017 at 6:34 PM, Release said:

Then you will be aligned to the right to play a draw shot.  Not a condition for push to the right.

That's just what it's called. Push is just referring to the start line. If you want to hit a draw you should have the face aimed right of the target.

 

failure to complete the golf swing and hung back will result in a push to the right no matter where the club face is pointing and whether the arms rotate or not.

All the motion with the torso and the arm/hand should happen without being mindful if the motion of a golf swing is complete.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Release said:

failure to complete the golf swing and hung back will result in a push to the right no matter where the club face is pointing and whether the arms rotate or not.

No. That makes no sense at all.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, Release said:

failure to complete the golf swing and hung back will result in a push to the right no matter where the club face is pointing and whether the arms rotate or not.

Suggest you read this, ball starts mostly where the face is pointed, not path.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws