Provisional or Drop for a Water Hazard

[Asheville]

It's most likely an incorrectly substituted ball (R15-2) played from a wrong place (R20-7).

[DeadMan]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

???

Sorry, he can't play the provisional. That was dumb. 

[billchao]

6 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

So this is my take.

Hypothetically, I hit my third shot as @JonMA1 did. Take a provisional, legally. Go up and find the original ball inside the margin, do I then proceed with my water hazard options?

Yes, once you find the original ball, that's the one in play.

[Fourputt]

The only time you can "assume" that a ball is in a hazard is if, after examining the area, it is determined that there is no place outside of the hazard where the ball would not be found.  This means that if you did not see the ball go into and remain in the hazard, there must be a condition of short grass or bare ground right up to the margin, where the ball would be certain to be found if it was outside of the hazard.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Fourputt

[iacas]

11 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Hypothetically, I hit my third shot as @JonMA1 did. Take a provisional, legally. Go up and find the original ball inside the margin, do I then proceed with my water hazard options?

Right. Ideally, that's what he'd have done.

Sounds pretty much almost exactly like this scenario, no?

26-1/4 - Ball Played Under Water Hazard Rule Without Knowledge or Virtual Certainty That Original Ball in Hazard; Original Ball Then Found in Hazard

Q.A player's ball carried over a water hazard into some trees. It could not be determined whether the ball bounced back into the hazard or came to rest in the trees. Therefore, it was neither known nor virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard.

The player did not search for his original ball. He assumed that it was in the hazard, dropped a ball behind the hazard at a spot that conformed to Rule 26-1b and played that ball onto the green. As he was walking to the green, he found his original ball in the hazard. What is the ruling?

A.The first paragraph of Rule 26-1 states in part: "In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck towards a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1." Therefore, the player was not entitled to assume that his original ball was in the hazard and the fact that it was subsequently found in the hazard is irrelevant. When the player dropped and played another ball behind the hazard, it became the ball in play and the original ball was lost. The player was required to proceed under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 26-1b, he played from a wrong place.

In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). If the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in Rule 20-7c.

---

@Asheville whaddya think?

[Asheville]

Incorrectly substituted ball played from a wrong place and most likely a serious breach.

[Golfingdad]

13 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Hypothetically, I hit my third shot as @JonMA1 did. Take a provisional, legally. Go up and find the original ball inside the margin, do I then proceed with my water hazard options?

 

11 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

The experts can confirm, but I believe that's correct.

 

7 hours ago, billchao said:

Yes, once you find the original ball, that's the one in play.

How can one legally take a provisional after hitting a ball like the one @JonMA1 described in the OP?  Provisionals are solely for balls thought to be OB or lost outside of a hazard.  In OPs case, he thought it was probably in the creek, so there isn't a way to legally hit a provisional.  Am I missing something?

---

Now, that said, I think that this is a prime example of where the rules apply differently in a tournament setting versus in a casual/practical setting.  Obviously it's my opinion and I don't speak for many, but if I was OP I would have played this hole in a casual round EXACTLY like he did and I would have scored it EXACTLY like he did.  If I play it by the book, which means going to look for the ball first, and I don't find it, then I'm trekking back and holding up the groups behind me unnecessarily.  Or if I played it like he did but then score it correctly, then I feel like I'm artificially inflating my handicap - that just wouldn't sit right with me.

[JonMA1]

24 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

How can one legally take a provisional after hitting a ball like the one @JonMA1 described in the OP?  Provisionals are solely for balls thought to be OB or lost outside of a hazard.  In OPs case, he thought it was probably in the creek, so there isn't a way to legally hit a provisional.  Am I missing something?

Obviously I don't know so I'm just guessing. But doesn't the amount of uncertainty allow for a provisional (from the correct spot that is)?

[Hardspoon]

22 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Provisionals are solely for balls thought to be OB or lost outside of a hazard.

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1.

 

Given the hazard as described, the ball may have been lost outside of it...so a provisional was appropriate (from the original place).

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

How can one legally take a provisional after hitting a ball like the one @JonMA1 described in the OP?

He can, because it could be lost outside the hazard. If there's thick rough, etc. If he's not virtually certain it's in the hazard, he can hit a provisional.

But the provisional has to be from the proper place. He dropped a provisional from a totally different place.

51 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Provisionals are solely for balls thought to be OB or lost outside of a hazard.  In OPs case, he thought it was probably in the creek, so there isn't a way to legally hit a provisional.  Am I missing something?

"thought it was probably in the creek" is not virtual certainty.

51 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Now, that said, I think that this is a prime example of where the rules apply differently in a tournament setting versus in a casual/practical setting.

That doesn't make any sense to me. He could have easily followed the rules here, and the same process would have applied in a tournament.

That process is:

1. He hits shot three near the water.
2. He isn't sure where it is, and so he's allowed to hit a provisional. He does so from that location. OR
3. He is sure it went in the water (someone saw it, he's never had a ball stay out when he hits it there, etc. - so long as it meets the standard of "virtual certainty") and he can proceed forward under rule 26 to play a ball as if it went into the hazard.

That's it. Either of 2 or 3 could have been done depending on what they were. He made up his own process. He played a ball as if it was #3, but called it a "provisional." So ignore what he called the ball - he could have called it "Wilson" and drawn a face on it, but he didn't change the fact that it was an incorrectly substituted ball.

53 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Obviously it's my opinion and I don't speak for many, but if I was OP I would have played this hole in a casual round EXACTLY like he did and I would have scored it EXACTLY like he did.

That doesn't mean the "rules" are different, it just means you've made up your own rules. Which is fine, but if you wanted to actually play by THE rules, you could have just done as I said above.

I get that you're saying it's impractical to go forward and look for a ball when it's all the way around the water hazard. Yes, many people would have played a ball to save some time and maybe even abandoned it if they found their original golf ball and decided to play it. I think that's more what you're saying here… but obviously there are reasons (like having two balls "in play") that this kind of rule wasn't changed in the "modernized" rules, even.

And, like we've all said several times before, how people would play it in a casual round is neither here nor there… this is the Rules of Golf sub-forum, so we can only really discuss what the rules say. If you're not affecting my game or whatever, I don't care what anyone does with the rules. Do what makes you happy.

But for handicapping, you'd have to either decide to take par + handicap since the hole was so badly played NOT under the Rules of Golf, or write down a 6 or something since that might be your "most likely" score since you lay 3 in a hazard with your original ball, and I could see you being justified in writing the 5 down for handicap because if you had dropped out legally since your ball WAS in the hazard, you holed out (as unlikely as that is to occur, it DID occur, so…).

53 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

If I play it by the book, which means going to look for the ball first, and I don't find it, then I'm trekking back and holding up the groups behind me unnecessarily. Or if I played it like he did but then score it correctly, then I feel like I'm artificially inflating my handicap - that just wouldn't sit right with me.

Yeah, I think I responded to that above. Maybe.

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

Incorrectly substituted ball played from a wrong place and most likely a serious breach.

While I agree that the breach was significantly closer to the hole than where he should have played a provisional (serious breach), it wasn't significantly closer to the hole (and was opposite the hazard) from where he found his ball, and that wouldn't be a serious breach IMO.

Plus, 26-1/4 seems to describe his scenario exactly, don't you think, @Asheville? If you disagree, why? Do you think it's a serious breach? Why, when his original ball is found closer to the hole and on the other side of the hazard (albeit in the hazard), which would entitle him to drop exactly where he incorrectly substituted a ball?

[JonMA1]

32 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Or if I played it like he did but then score it correctly, then I feel like I'm artificially inflating my handicap - that just wouldn't sit right with me.

This was a big part of it. This was one of my better practice rounds of of late - even with the 9 on this hole. 

Also, for the last couple years I've tried to use all these solo rounds as a means to learn and practice the rules. Admittedly, I've failed at times. It'll sink in eventually.... I hope. 

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The only time you can "assume" that a ball is in a hazard is if, after examining the area, it is determined that there is no place outside of the hazard where the ball would not be found.  This means that if you did not see the ball go into and remain in the hazard, there must be a condition of short grass or bare ground right up to the margin, where the ball would be certain to be found if it was outside of the hazard.

My mistake of the provisional aside, this is the main takeaway from this, IMO. As unlikely as it was, there was enough of a chance that I went looking for it. That's why in good conscious I couldn't score the 80 yard shot that I holed. Had I known the original was in play inside the hazard I would have opted to play it even though the lie wasn't very good. Now if I saw it drop into the abyss where I had no chance, different story. I'd have posted this story in the "best shot of the week" thread.

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

He could have easily followed the rules here, and the same process would have applied in a tournament.

It would have been very easy to proceed correctly. In this scenario, it would have taken no more extra time to have played by the rules. 

The only thing I'm unsure of is what I'd have done if I didn't find the ball. It would have been hard to believe it landed anywhere but in the hazard. Possible, but very unlikely.

---

I believe my goat track of a home course is not typical. On most courses, it's obvious when a ball goes into a water hazard, is it not? 

On this very hole, the left side of the fairway is lined with trees that are right at the edge of the same creek described above (the creek winds in front of the hole). I've hooked balls deep into those woods but can't recall ever playing anything but an out-of-bounds and re-teeing from the tee box. Without seeing it lying in the creek or creek bed, there's too much of a chance it didn't go in. Hell, I've found my ball back on the fairway after never seeing it bounce back from off a tree.

[Golfingdad]

Sounds like provisionals can be used a little more liberally than I've been lead to believe, even when a hazard is involved.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Sounds like provisionals can be used a little more liberally than I've been lead to believe, even when a hazard is involved.

They're almost the inverse of "virtually certain."

I say almost because there are obviously times when your ball is not possibly lost, like you can see it.  Or it's hit toward a place like over a bump in the fairway where there's no tall grass, water, etc.

In those cases if you claim you're hitting a provisional you're cheating, because really it's a practice swing, and those are against the rules.

But yeah, you can hit a provisional when you have a reason to believe your original ball may be:

• Lost
• OB

That's it.

a. Procedure 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

[Fourputt]

There are 3 holes on my home course where the Men's Club has the local rule in effect to allow a provisional ball to be played because of the uncertainty of the original ball being in or out of the hazard.  On these holes there is no chance of the ball being lost outside of the hazard, but there is a chance that it is not in the hazard , but no way to tell until one gets to the other side.  A significant amount of time would be lost going all the way around to determine whether or not the ball had indeed cleared the water hazard, then if not found, returning to the correct spot for a drop.  The provisional ball is played, then if the original ball is found outside of the hazard, it is in play.  If the original ball is not found, the provisional ball is is in play.  The player may not then decide to drop under Rule 26-1, as he is deemed to have played under penalty of stroke and distance, just as with any other provisional ball.  

If the original ball is found in the hazard, the player may choose between playing that one or the provisional ball.  This is a questionable option in my opinion, since no where else in the rules is the player ever allowed a choice between 2 balls in play, and it definitely plays loose with the principles.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Fourputt

[David in FL]

10 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

There are 3 holes on my home course where the Men's Club has the local rule in effect to allow a provisional ball to be played because of the uncertainty of the original ball being in or out of the hazard.  On these holes there is no chance of the ball being lost outside of the hazard, but there is a chance that it is not in the hazard , but no way to tell until one gets to the other side.  A significant amount of time would be lost going all the way around to determine whether or not the ball had indeed cleared the water hazard, then if not found, returning to the correct spot for a drop.  The provisional ball is played, then if the original ball is found outside of the hazard, it is in play.  If the original ball is not found, the provisional ball is is in play.  The player may not then decide to drop under Rule 26-1, as he is deemed to have played under penalty of stroke and distance, just as with any other provisional ball.  

If the original ball is found in the hazard, the player may choose between playing that one or the provisional ball.  This is a questionable option in my opinion, since no where else in the rules is the player ever allowed a choice between 2 balls in play, and it definitely plays loose with the principles.

We have 3 holes here, on 3 different courses, that apply the same LR.

[Buckeyebowman]

OK, now I'm a little confused. In the diagram in the OP it shows him dropping a ball on a line from the flagstick through where the ball first, and maybe last, crossed the line of the hazard.

In my mind there has always been a qualitative difference between a drop and a provisional. You drop a ball when you know it is lost in a hazard or the woods. You hit a provisional, mainly from the tee, when you think your tee shot may be OB or irretrievably lost in the woods.

From the content of the thread I'm guessing this is not so. If you your original ball is lost in a hazard, and you drop in accordance with the rules, is that ball considered a provisional?

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

From the content of the thread I'm guessing this is not so. If you your original ball is lost in a hazard, and you drop in accordance with the rules, is that ball considered a provisional?

I don't understand. He makes this pretty clear in the first post. Did you read it or just look at the picture?

No, that's not a provisional. He didn't play a provisional (properly). You can only play a provisional from the original location of any shot.

[Buckeyebowman]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't understand. He makes this pretty clear in the first post. Did you read it or just look at the picture?

No, that's not a provisional. He didn't play a provisional (properly). You can only play a provisional from the original location of any shot.

OK, that's kind of what I thought, I just didn't want to go on typing half the night. I can get long winded at times as you no doubt know. He was asking if he COULD have played a provisional from the original location of his third shot. Which was kind of how a provisional is defined, at least in my mind.

And yes, I did read it, and thanks for the clarification.