Pulling the Handle Inward

[Jack Watson]

@billchao

I agree with the idea that the force in the coupling and the momentum in the clubhead are not one and the same.  They can't be in any good swing motion.

Ive been there done that in terms of thought.  Didn't miss the point at all just pointing out Mayos egregious error.

 

Watch 5:00 to 5:30 in the video.  Watch what he says about the trail hand.

Also the left hand simply pulling up is BY FAR NOT SPECIFIC ENOUGH.  If he cared at all about specifics he would relate that direction of force to the clubheads orbit.

Thats true force.  Pulling up by itself is applying off plane force.  Just sayin...

Try and hit a ball while applying force in the trailing hand in opposition to the momentum of the clubhead orbit.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Jack Watson

[billchao]

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Also the left hand simply pulling up is BY FAR NOT SPECIFIC ENOUGH.  If he cared at all about specifics he would relate that direction of force to the clubheads orbit.

It's not an instructional video. He's not talking about feels and how to achieve this release, he's just saying "this is what is happening."

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Thats true force.  Pulling up by itself is applying off plane force.  Just sayin...

The clubhead is always traveling on a plane. Just sayin...

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Try and hit a ball while applying force in the trailing hand in opposition to the momentum of the clubhead orbit.

You're not actively applying the force, it just happens. As @iacas described, if you're holding onto something that is moving in one direction, a force must be applied in the opposite direction to keep that object in your hands.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Also the idea that the bottom hand is pulling back on the clubhead going through is wrong.  Hogan was straightenING the right arm through impact and he very clearly stated as much in the Coleman video.  "No pressure down or around the shaft just forward"

a) It's not wrong.

b) Player's "feels" for what they were doing are unreliable at best.

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, billchao said:

if you're holding onto something that is moving in one direction, a force must be applied in the opposite direction to keep that object in your hands.

I struggled with physics so please be patient. In this case however, we're not 'holding on to something that is moving.' The club is connected to our arm which is being moved by us. Is the above stating the opposite direction occurs at impact due the resistance met with the golf ball? I'm just not getting where or how the trail hand was 'measured' to be pulling back.

[boogielicious]

My issue with watching videos like this, or any for that matter, is it can distract me from what I am working on. I have not watched this for that reason. I have a very specific priority piece I am working on, and watching tip videos can lure me away from that priority. 

I know what my issue is, and have to focus on eliminating it. When I hit a bad shot, I know what was incorrect because I have seen it on film. I haven't changed the picture fully yet. I think many people will just jump from one tip to another watching stuff like this. It isn't helping you.

[Vinsk]

1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

My issue with watching videos like this, or any for that matter, is it can distract me from what I am working on. I have not watched this for that reason. I have a very specific priority piece I am working on, and watching tip videos can lure me away from that priority. 

I know what my issue is, and have to focus on eliminating it. When I hit a bad shot, I know what was incorrect because I have seen it on film. I haven't changed the picture fully yet. I think many people will just jump from one tip to another watching stuff like this. It isn't helping you.

True. For me it's academical curiosity. I'm  just trying to grasp the physics here in particular how I've heard so many discuss Ben Hogan and his infamous push/pull concept which I guess he felt he was doing yet physics say otherwise.

[boogielicious]

Just now, Vinsk said:

True. For me it's academical curiosity. I'm  just trying to grasp the physics here in particular how I've heard so many discuss Ben Hogan and his infamous push/pull concept which I guess he felt he was doing yet physics say otherwise.

I'm really good with physics and I think many folks, including those analyzing Hogan's swing, don't really know and are speculating. To really model a golf swing from a physics standpoint, you have to include all the forces involved. The Golf Machine kind of did that, but the is more known now. We could spend years developing the model, at great cost, but in the end, will it help me swing better? No. Could it help golf instructors to teach better, probably. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I struggled with physics so please be patient. In this case however, we're not 'holding on to something that is moving.' The club is connected to our arm which is being moved by us. Is the above stating the opposite direction occurs at impact due the resistance met with the golf ball? I'm just not getting where or how the trail hand was 'measured' to be pulling back.

@Vinsk the handle is still moving. If we let go it would continue to move. How it started to move is almost irrelevant.

[Jack Watson]

@billchao

Ok,  he says "the trail HAND is trying to go this way"

Try applying force from the right hand that way and hitting a ball.  Good luck.

Ok,  that's a feel.  That's saying ok,  try to feel right wrist dorsiflexion.  He actually doesn't mention the arm.  Ok,  that's one feel a person can use and I am sure plenty of golfers use that.  I believe Iacas has shown like a no throw kind of drill several times in different contexts and that's good.  

He never said what the force on the handle really is or where any data on that is coming from. 

So,  here's Hogan and I am not saying what he shows here is anything except what worked for him.  Hogan says the last three fingers of the left are pulling up at all times.  Again through impact the shaft is not vertical.  

With the right he says he used forward pressure.  He never once said to apply pressure to the handle like Mayo implied nor has any great player I have seen.  

Maybe Mayo should have just said a good feel to try is feel the right wrist angle not throwing while driving the club through with the right shoulder.

Hogan is showing the direction of force applied to the handle from the bottom hand.  It doesn't have to be from that finger but that handle is experiencing a force moving as he showed in all good players.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

So is Blake saying pull the mop up with the left and pull back with the right hand?  Of course not!  Skip to 2 min mark.

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

I'm out and can't respond until later but man, @Jack Watson, are you getting this stuff wrong.

Oh and Lynn is wrong frequently. And Hogan only knows what he felt.

[Jack Watson]

Ok,  one last example and then I will wait on responses.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/watson-powerkey

He says you can throw the right hand hard towards the target.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  one last example and then I will wait on responses.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/watson-powerkey

He says you can throw the right hand hard towards the target.

Feel vs. measured reality.

[iacas]

I like @mvmac's classification of this stuff as "classroom" type stuff.

So bear that in mind when you read this discussion. "Classroom" stuff is rarely stuff you actually teach a student in a lesson. It's usually some little thing that "just happens" or something, and a bit of trivia some people feel makes them look smart, but… the practical application in trying to teach someone is pretty minimal, often.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  he says "the trail HAND is trying to go this way"

Try applying force from the right hand that way and hitting a ball.  Good luck.

I've highlighted the BOC and the bottom end of the grip in red and yellow here.

The club is rotating here. If it didn't, and it maintained the same relationship with the left arm, the radius would be short and the club would swing over the top of the ball and very slowly, at that.

Instead, the club is rotating counter-clockwise from this view. You can see this in the green arrows.

Which direction would the bottom hand be opposing? Oh, pulling back you say? Exactly.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  that's a feel.

The opposite. It's what's actually occurring.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

That's saying ok,  try to feel right wrist dorsiflexion.  He actually doesn't mention the arm.  Ok,  that's one feel a person can use and I am sure plenty of golfers use that.  I believe Iacas has shown like a no throw kind of drill several times in different contexts and that's good.

I don't know what any of that really means. Also, https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/mention-members/.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

He never said what the force on the handle really is or where any data on that is coming from.

It's out there.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So,  here's Hogan and I am not saying what he shows here is anything except what worked for him.  Hogan says the last three fingers of the left are pulling up at all times.  Again through impact the shaft is not vertical.

a) Hogan didn't do what he said either. He was pulling inward with the handle at the points Joe says, and his right hand was pulling back when Joe says it was. The physics haven't changed since Hogan's days.

b) What about the shaft? Who said it was vertical? Or are you just trying to complain about a few degrees.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

With the right he says he used forward pressure.  He never once said to apply pressure to the handle like Mayo implied nor has any great player I have seen.

Yeah, you're not getting anywhere with this.

I don't care what Hogan says he was doing. I don't care what any player "says" they're doing. I care what they're actually doing, and the science on this is pretty clear.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Maybe Mayo should have just said a good feel to try is feel the right wrist angle not throwing while driving the club through with the right shoulder.

Joe's not talking about a feel!

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Hogan is showing the direction of force applied to the handle from the bottom hand.  It doesn't have to be from that finger but that handle is experiencing a force moving as he showed in all good players.

Hogan's wrong.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So is Blake saying pull the mop up with the left and pull back with the right hand?  Of course not!  Skip to 2 min mark.

Lynn's wrong.

In terms of what is actually happening.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The club is rotating here. If it didn't, and it maintained the same relationship with the left arm, the radius would be short and the club would swing over the top of the ball and very slowly, at that.

Instead, the club is rotating counter-clockwise from this view. You can see this in the green arrows.

This and the diagram did it for me. Thanks @iacas.

[Jack Watson]

I'm good with it.

Found cool data on it from a few years back.  

I think it's likely that Mayo parrots info based on computer models and calcs.  

Fine by me.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Phil McGleno]

18 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I'm good with it.

Found cool data on it from a few years back.  

What is the URL to this info?-And why do you seem to hate Joe Mayo?

[Jack Watson]

@Phil McGleno

I think it was Lophborough university or some such.  They had sensors on the handle and also in the glove.  

Some of the findings strangely enough matched what Hogan said about finger pressures.

They found varying signatures between golfers in terms of pressure but there was a clear subset that I liked.

Not gonna put it here but you can find it with google easily enough.