Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 2437 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, klineka said:

@Elmer proximity to the pin might have something to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. If you're 'hitting GIR and guarantee 2-putt and a few 3-putts...that's not a 15hcp. GIR and a 2 putt is par.  Add a few extra strokes for a 'few 3 putts' you're still not at 15hcp. You're seldom hitting GIR if at all. That's why despite 2 putting, and a few 3 putts...you're a 15hcp. You could vastly improve your putting to have ZERO 3 putts but it's still taking you 2.5-3 shots to get to the green...that's why you're a 15hcp. Ball striking is your goal. 

Edited by Vinsk

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
18 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

It has everything to do with it. If you're 'hitting GIR and guarantee 2-putt and a few 3-putts...that's not a 15hcp. GIR and a 2 putt is par.  Add a few extra strokes for a 'few 3 putts' you're still not at 15hcp. You're seldom hitting GIR if at all. That's why despite 2 putting, and a few 3 putts...you're a 15hcp. You could vastly improve your putting to have ZERO 3 putts but it's still taking you 2.5-3 shots to get to the green...that's why you're a 15hcp. Ball striking is your goal. 

FWIW I am right around a 15 hcp and for the 18 hole rounds that I have kept stats on this year (15 rounds), I am at 44% GIR, 34 putts per round average. Ive been as high as 61% GIR this season and as low as 28% all while playing right around that 14-15 hcp range in the 80s for the most part. couple outliers under 80 and over 90 but more often than not im in the 80s. 

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
3 hours ago, klineka said:

FWIW I am right around a 15 hcp and for the 18 hole rounds that I have kept stats on this year (15 rounds), I am at 44% GIR, 34 putts per round average. Ive been as high as 61% GIR this season and as low as 28% all while playing right around that 14-15 hcp range in the 80s for the most part. couple outliers under 80 and over 90 but more often than not im in the 80s. 

On a par 72 course, 44% GIR and 32 putts scores 80.  Throw in a few blow up doubles, and you're still in the 82-83 range.  That's WAY better than 15 hcp, unless you're playing a ridiculously easy course.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
17 hours ago, David in FL said:

The question to ask is whether you would chip better with a chipper than you do with an 8-iron.  Not whether you chip better than some other dude. ;-) 

Fair enough. But he was the A player in our group and I was the B player. Seems odd his handicap is lower than mine and yet he wasn't very good around the greens, I'd wonder if the specialized chipper was helping, but if he has room in his bag - it's his choice. Again, there is no right answer for all.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

On a par 72 course, 44% GIR and 32 putts scores 80.  Throw in a few blow up doubles, and you're still in the 82-83 range.  That's WAY better than 15 hcp, unless you're playing a ridiculously easy course.

Most of the courses I play are local municipal courses that are short and easy. Personally I play them because they are the cheapest courses, Most are <$40 for 18 holes with cart even on weekends. Here are some of the course and slope ratings. Some on this list are obviously repeats of the same course. The 72.4/133 definitely kicked my butt, that was on my honeymoon in the Dominican Republic. Punta Espada golf course. By far the nicest course I've ever played.

69 125
68 109
72.4 133
69.6 122
68.4 113
69.8 121
65.4 105
65.4 105
67.5 123
65.4 105
68.4 120

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I love my Cleveland chipper. It has a shorter shaft and a heavy head and that gives me a lot of control versus chipping with a pitching wedge or other clubs. I just mimic a putting stroke. It's a magical club because it's so easy to hit well.

It also works great for getting out from under tree branches.

  • Upvote 1

Posted
1 minute ago, arturo28mx said:

I love my Cleveland chipper. It has a shorter shaft and a heavy head and that gives me a lot of control versus chipping with a pitching wedge or other clubs. I just mimic a putting stroke. It's a magical club because it's so easy to hit well.

It also works great for getting out from under tree branches.

Same here.  I've also found that, contrary to popular opinion, I can open it up and play a cut.  It takes some time to get comfortable with; but so does everything else.

  • Upvote 1

In der bag:
Cleveland Hi-Bore driver, Maltby 5 wood, Maltby hybrid, Maltby irons and wedges (23 to 50) Vokey 59/07, Cleveland Niblick (LH-42), and a Maltby mallet putter.                                                                                                                                                 "When the going gets tough...it's tough to get going."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
24 minutes ago, arturo28mx said:

I love my Cleveland chipper. It has a shorter shaft and a heavy head and that gives me a lot of control versus chipping with a pitching wedge or other clubs. I just mimic a putting stroke. It's a magical club because it's so easy to hit well.

It also works great for getting out from under tree branches.

 

5 minutes ago, Piz said:

Same here.  I've also found that, contrary to popular opinion, I can open it up and play a cut.  It takes some time to get comfortable with; but so does everything else.

Do you know the loft and the bounce of these? Do you ever hit it with a full swing? If so, what is the typical yardage you see?

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 minute ago, klineka said:

 

Do you know the loft and the bounce of these? Do you ever hit it with a full swing? If so, what is the typical yardage you see?

Both my Cleveland niblicks (RH and LH) are 42 degrees loft.  The length and lie is close to a sand wedge according to an unscientific living room comparison.  With a full swing I can carry the right-handed one about 120 and the left-handed one about 100.  I'm getting better from the left side but it still feels a bit odd.  That's off a mat, at the range.  I don't usually use them from that far out on the course...unless it's really dry and I'm trying to bounce one on.

In der bag:
Cleveland Hi-Bore driver, Maltby 5 wood, Maltby hybrid, Maltby irons and wedges (23 to 50) Vokey 59/07, Cleveland Niblick (LH-42), and a Maltby mallet putter.                                                                                                                                                 "When the going gets tough...it's tough to get going."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

The putt technique is why I would not bag a chipper.  It's easy with say an 8 iron.

Runyans technique is good in the right situation...


  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

these clubs make me laugh. I can't remember where I saw it, maybe rockbottomgolf but I saw a chipper for sale there for like 10 bucks or something, maybe less.  theres a reason for that.  they've gotta be the most dust collecting club on the planet. I've known a few guys who've had them, one used it recently because he joked about how he hadnt used it in years, and the ball probably came off about 2 feet offline when he hit it. we laughed.  My personal opinion is that if youre in a situation where one of these chippers would be a good play, you are probably close enough to the green where you might as well just ****in putt the damn thing.  or if you want to use an actual club, any of your low lofted clubs will do the trick, or a wood, or a 9ir/pw. whatever.  I think a lot of people, including myself, fall in love with the wedges around the green and try to hit every shot, including long bump and runs with a 60 degree wedge, when they could easily just stub a pw and it will come off low, bite, and run to the hole if you hit it alright. I've definitely improved my game by choosing smarter clubs around the green instead of just hitting flop shots all the time just because I can and like to show off

3-pw 2007 callaway x-forged
56 cleveland
60 cleveland 
Driver - Callaway xr16
3w - Callaway xr16
Shoes - Etonic stabilite sport


Posted
On 04/09/2017 at 3:07 AM, downbylaw11 said:

these clubs make me laugh. I can't remember where I saw it, maybe rockbottomgolf but I saw a chipper for sale there for like 10 bucks or something, maybe less.  theres a reason for that.  they've gotta be the most dust collecting club on the planet. I've known a few guys who've had them, one used it recently because he joked about how he hadnt used it in years, and the ball probably came off about 2 feet offline when he hit it. we laughed.  My personal opinion is that if youre in a situation where one of these chippers would be a good play, you are probably close enough to the green where you might as well just ****in putt the damn thing.  or if you want to use an actual club, any of your low lofted clubs will do the trick, or a wood, or a 9ir/pw. whatever.  I think a lot of people, including myself, fall in love with the wedges around the green and try to hit every shot, including long bump and runs with a 60 degree wedge, when they could easily just stub a pw and it will come off low, bite, and run to the hole if you hit it alright. I've definitely improved my game by choosing smarter clubs around the green instead of just hitting flop shots all the time just because I can and like to show off

Chipper's lack street cred but they have a number of advantages over a wedge when chipping: they have a steeper lie angle and typically a shorter shaft. This all combines for better control and in theory consisconsistency.


Posted

youre probably right.  the idea of a chipper I think is great, but in a game of 14 club max, it would be pretty difficult to carry this club legally, would it not? i mean, if you wanna carry extra clubs, then i guess it's fine to have

3-pw 2007 callaway x-forged
56 cleveland
60 cleveland 
Driver - Callaway xr16
3w - Callaway xr16
Shoes - Etonic stabilite sport


Posted
1 hour ago, downbylaw11 said:

youre probably right.  the idea of a chipper I think is great, but in a game of 14 club max, it would be pretty difficult to carry this club legally, would it not? i mean, if you wanna carry extra clubs, then i guess it's fine to have

Most of those that would benefit from a chipper can easily drop any number of clubs that get them into more trouble than they're worth...

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

youre probably right.  the idea of a chipper I think is great, but in a game of 14 club max, it would be pretty difficult to carry this club legally, would it not? i mean, if you wanna carry extra clubs, then i guess it's fine to have

You are right. I carry a chipper because normally I play with only 12 clubs. So I have space for a couple of specialty clubs. 

  • Upvote 1

Posted

I play right-handed; but I've been using my left-handed niblick more and more.  Last time out; I used it five times and got up and down three times.  The learning curve, for playing off-handed pitches and chips, is fairly flat.  It doesn't take much practice to produce acceptable results when you are only trying to figure out one thing.

In der bag:
Cleveland Hi-Bore driver, Maltby 5 wood, Maltby hybrid, Maltby irons and wedges (23 to 50) Vokey 59/07, Cleveland Niblick (LH-42), and a Maltby mallet putter.                                                                                                                                                 "When the going gets tough...it's tough to get going."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2437 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.