Lost ball rule and pace of play

[chilepepper]

I’m not sure any rule change will speed up play on courses that are popular and or have tee times at 8 minutes apart. It only takes a group or two to mess up the flow on the entire course. 

[saevel25]

Also, you don't have to play by the rules of golf. If you are out for fun, or your group agrees to wave certain rules for a match, that is OK. Just make sure you do not post those rounds with regards to your handicap.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, ANDY_UK said:

... if only in amateur golf!

 

One of the great things about this game is that there is no bifurcation of The Rules.  Everyone, from the newest beginner, to the best in the world, play by the exact same rules.  I think it would be a tragedy to change that.

 If people choose not to follow the rules, I don't care.  Have fun, and keep moving, but we don't need to change the fundamental principles of the game to accomodate those who already don't play by the rules...   

[klineka]

2 hours ago, ANDY_UK said:

I like to play with new people regularly, and often the discussion on the first tee is 'what do we do about the lost ball rule?' Outside serious competition the 'walk of shame' rule is universally ignored, so why the pretense that it's a good rule? Like a lot of the other dumb rules that are being dumped in 2019, the governing bodies should have dumped this as well, if only in amateur golf!

That logic doesnt make sense. Just because people ignore it means its a bad rule?

Speed limits on roads. Pretty much universally ignored (even going 40 in a 35 is breaking the speed limit/rule) yet speed limits are good rules. 

Just because something is universally ignored doesnt mean it is a bad rule. 

[saevel25]

8 minutes ago, klineka said:

Just because something is universally ignored doesnt mean it is a bad rule. 

I agree.

It's probably because of the following reasons,

1. They are lazy
2. They do not know the provisional rule
3. They play in leagues that do not care
4. They do not want to feel like they are holding up play

As long as they are not posting those rounds for an official handicap, then cool. They can play what ever form of golf they want.

[NM Golf]

3 hours ago, ANDY_UK said:

To answer your question, I would regard the area beyond the fairway where one feels the ball is lost to be a ‘lateral hazard’ and then drop the ball according to the current hazard rules. Namely, drop within two club-lengths of, and not nearer the hole than, the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard (In the case of a lost ball, the margin would be the fairway edge) . Not always easy to determine where the ball crossed the margin, but then hooking a shot 200 yds away into a lateral water hazard that runs the length of the fairway poses the same problem at the moment. 

However, unlike the lateral hazard rule, add 2 penalty shots not one. So in your scenario, the golfer who hit his shot behind a tree would lie 2, and the golfer who lost a ball would lie 3

Another option would be to adopt Speedgolf rules, but adding 2 penalty shots. See below

 

 

Andy

 

That speedgolf lost ball rule is as ridiculous as her outfit. Using line of flight to drop is a license to cheat.

 

As far as your suggestion, it's better than speed golf, but it still doesn't allow for a definite area to drop. Where exactly is the area beyond the fairway? Where does it end and begin? So we are still back to my original problem where can you equitably drop? I will tell you where, back where you hit your original shot, hopefully you realized you hit a ball that might not be found and hit a provisional.

[ANDY_UK]

Guess I'm not going to win this argument, so can't see the rules changing anytime soon. Hopefully the new 3 minute searching rule and maximum score on a hole will speed things up, as I guess that's one of the main reasons for changing them?

Agree that ideally, we should have the same rules as the pros, but they do have advantages when it comes to looking for balls, in the form of a travelling army of spectators and marshals. Anybody who has followed a wild hitting group round in the British Open will know what I mean.

[Lihu]

On 10/16/2017 at 4:51 PM, David in FL said:

There are a bunch of threads on this topic, all explaining why such a rule is impossible.

But the best takeaway is the simplest,  whenever there's the least question whether a ball may be lost or OB, hit a provisional.  

"Problem" solved...

 

23 hours ago, NM Golf said:

Problem with changing the rule is when a ball is LOST then how do you know where to drop? In my years of playing this silly game and searching and finding balls, I have observed that most of the time people search well past where the ball actually was. Taking a penalty stroke and then dropping and playing from the spot where you "think" your ball may have been lost opens a can of worms to say the least. For one if you really were anywhere near where your ball got lost you would look down and find the dang thing!

OB (not OOB btw) is a slightly different thing, it is possible, just like a lateral hazard, to estimate where the ball crossed the line and play from there with a penalty.  That being said I still don't understand why someone wouldn't hit a provisional if their ball goes in the direction of out of bounds.

Sure, most people look where they don't hit, and that's a problem. But not as bad as when high handicappers are told to play by the rules on the course by an "expert".

It's even worse when they find the ball to be unplayable after a 5 minute search even though they hit a provisional which they now can't use. They are then told to follow rule 28 for their shot then proceed to hit OB twice. . .playing by the rules is possibly time consuming especially if you apply the same rules to beginners as to yourself. I've actually been an innocent bystander, quite a few times now, where a low handicap would tell the novice how to proceed by the rules. The novice would never even know how to repeat what the low handicapper told him to do "in this case" again anyway. Meanwhile, people are collecting at the tee box, and you can hear their conversations distinctly since you're less than 100 yards from them, and I've been on the tee box numerous times as well listening to the conversations of the perpetrators of these playing by the rules shenanigans.

Cases like this happened numerous times with me standing there near the tee box waiting or waiting at a tee box. Usually, just before I jump ahead to the next hole which is cleared along with consecutive 5 holes. If it was up to me, I'd tell them to just take their expected score after 5 minutes of floundering around. Actually, that's what I usually suggest, sometimes I'm ignored and sometimes not.

 

 

16 minutes ago, ANDY_UK said:

Guess I'm not going to win this argument, so can't see the rules changing anytime soon. Hopefully the new 3 minute searching rule and maximum score on a hole will speed things up, as I guess that's one of the main reasons for changing them?

Agree that ideally, we should have the same rules as the pros, but they do have advantages when it comes to looking for balls, in the form of a travelling army of spectators and marshals. Anybody who has followed a wild hitting group round in the British Open will know what I mean.

Exactly!

[Fourputt]

One possible answer to this issue might be that the player drops at the last point where the ball was visible.  If the ball is lost after crossing over a blind hill while still in flight, then the ball is dropped on that line at the top of the hill with a one stroke penalty.  That still satisfies the principle of only advancing the ball by making a stroke, but it also keeps things moving a bit better while still following a rule (if that was actually a rule).  Other than that, I can't see any truly workable rule for a lost ball aside from stroke and distance.

[NM Golf]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

Sure, most people look where they don't hit, and that's a problem. But not as bad as when high handicappers are told to play by the rules on the course by an "expert".

It's even worse when they find the ball to be unplayable after a 5 minute search even though they hit a provisional which they now can't use. They are then told to follow rule 28 for their shot then proceed to hit OB twice. . .playing by the rules is possibly time consuming especially if you apply the same rules to beginners as to yourself. I've actually been an innocent bystander, quite a few times now, where a low handicap would tell the novice how to proceed by the rules. The novice would never even know how to repeat what the low handicapper told him to do "in this case" again anyway. Meanwhile, people are collecting at the tee box, and you can hear their conversations distinctly since you're less than 100 yards from them, and I've been on the tee box numerous times as well listening to the conversations of the perpetrators of these playing by the rules shenanigans.

Cases like this happened numerous times with me standing there near the tee box waiting or waiting at a tee box. Usually, just before I jump ahead to the next hole which is cleared along with consecutive 5 holes. If it was up to me, I'd tell them to just take their expected score after 5 minutes of floundering around. Actually, that's what I usually suggest, sometimes I'm ignored and sometimes not.

Casual golfers can and do what they want. I myself have never found it inconvenient or slower to play by the rules. I personally think people that constantly bash the rules of golf should maybe try another activity with which they can agree with the rules of play, Scrabble perhaps.

Edited October 18, 2017 by NM Golf

[Lihu]

Just now, NM Golf said:

Casual golfers can and do what they want. I myself have never found it inconvenient or slower to play by the rules. I personally think people that bash the rules of golf should maybe try another activity with which they can agree with the rules of play, Scrabble perhaps.

Maybe, but I find it somewhat time consuming, which I agree it doesn't have to be, for beginners to play by the rules.

I play by the rules, but it doesn't take me that much time to get on or near the greens either.

 

6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

One possible answer to this issue might be that the player drops at the last point where the ball was visible.  If the ball is lost after crossing over a blind hill while still in flight, then the ball is dropped on that line at the top of the hill with a one stroke penalty.  That still satisfies the principle of only advancing the ball by making a stroke, but it also keeps things moving a bit better while still following a rule (if that was actually a rule).  Other than that, I can't see any truly workable rule for a lost ball aside from stroke and distance.

Is this potentially within the rules? It's be a way to speed things up for sure, or a variant of it perhaps?

[Fourputt]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Is this potentially within the rules? It's be a way to speed things up for sure, or a variant of it perhaps?

Not as far as I know.  I just sort of came up with that as a possible solution for those who want to play by a rule but can't justify returning to the previous spot on a packed golf course.  Whether a rules guru would buy into it is up for debate.  It just seems to me that it could satisfy the basic principles of the game, while still being workable on today's busy courses.  They could even modify the provisional ball rule to allow a player to play a provisional ball from the penalty point, then go forward to search the area which was blind from the tee or other previous spot.

I'm just tossing out an idea for discussion.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Fourputt

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Not as far as I know.  I just sort of came up with that as a possible solution for those who want to play by a rule but can't justify returning to the previous spot on a packed golf course.  Whether a rules guru would buy into it is up for debate.  It just seems to me that it could satisfy the basic principles of the game, while still being workable on today's busy courses.  They could even modify the provisional ball rule to allow a player to play a provisional ball from the penalty point, then go forward to search the area which was blind from the tee or other previous spot.

I'm just tossing out an idea for discussion.

It's a great suggestion. Too bad it's not possible in the foreseeable future. I think the new rules changes might help with PoP enough anyway, wait and see.

[NM Golf]

9 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

One possible answer to this issue might be that the player drops at the last point where the ball was visible.  If the ball is lost after crossing over a blind hill while still in flight, then the ball is dropped on that line at the top of the hill with a one stroke penalty.  That still satisfies the principle of only advancing the ball by making a stroke, but it also keeps things moving a bit better while still following a rule (if that was actually a rule).  Other than that, I can't see any truly workable rule for a lost ball aside from stroke and distance.

If you don't do stroke and distance, you have to incur a 2 stroke penalty. I mean you can't find your ball so obviously something bad happened to it. You have to be penalized so you are in worse shape than somebody who knows where their ball went. Losing a ball cannot be an advantage.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

If you don't do stroke and distance, you have to incur a 2 stroke penalty. I mean you can't find your ball so obviously something bad happened to it. You have to be penalized so you are in worse shape than somebody who knows where their ball went. Losing a ball cannot be an advantage.

Bummer, you're on to me.

[Fourputt]

35 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

If you don't do stroke and distance, you have to incur a 2 stroke penalty. I mean you can't find your ball so obviously something bad happened to it. You have to be penalized so you are in worse shape than somebody who knows where their ball went. Losing a ball cannot be an advantage.

I disagree that my proposal would require that.  Since it modifies the rule by defining a drop point closer to origin than where the ball is thought to have actually ended up, it should be workable just like the ball unplayable rule, just taking a one stroke penalty for the luxury of being allowed to drop and not playing the ball as lies.  Stroke and distance would still be in the rule if no such drop point was identifiable.

[NM Golf]

8 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I disagree that my proposal would require that.  Since it modifies the rule by defining a drop point closer to origin than where the ball is thought to have actually ended up, it should be workable just like the ball unplayable rule, just taking a one stroke penalty for the luxury of being allowed to drop and not playing the ball as lies.  Stroke and distance would still be in the rule if no such drop point was identifiable.

Difference between a lost ball and unplayable is...drum roll please...you know where an unplayable ball is! The highlighted portion of your quote is the problem I have with the whole thing. What if you hit it into the trees? The ball could be anywhere INCLUDING well behind where you think you lost it. Therefor dropping a ball where you THINK you lost it and taking only a one stroke penalty ends up being an advantage over someone who finds their ball and has to take an unplayable. Plus the fact dropping as an unplayable does not even guarantee relief whereas taking some half a$$ed guess as to where you think it was lost will. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by NM Golf

[saevel25]

46 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Therefor dropping a ball where you THINK you lost it and taking only a one stroke penalty ends up being an advantage over someone who finds their ball and has to take an unplayable. Plus the fact dropping as an unplayable does not even guarantee relief whereas taking some half a$$ed guess as to where you think it was lost will. 

I do see correlation in something like OB on the edge of the course and a lateral water hazard.

How accurate can you be if your ball is sliced into a water hazard? You don't have a good angle to see it cross the hazard. Same with the ball leaving the edge of the course.

I could see a rule saying that edge of the course OB could be treated like a water hazard. Both you do not get your ball back most of the time. You might not be exactly sure where it exited the course. I guess the only advantage is you can play from a water hazard. So if you go 30 yards into the woods then it is playable versus OB.