Drivers Insufficient Loft?

[Don Golfo]

https://mygolfspy.com/mygolfspy-labs-the-driver-fitting-study/

Came across this interesting article.  Given that an optimum launch angle for average golfers appears to be 17-19 degrees and hitting up plus shaft lag adds 5-7 degrees, this suggests the average golfer should be using a 12 degree driver? Slow swingers more like 13-15 degrees? 

Looking forward to the machismo flowing !!!?

[Marty2019]

I use a 12 degree driver.  I love it.  My drives still have a pretty low trajectory, though.  But driving the ball off the tee is not my weakness.  It's really my best club. 

[MarvChamp]

I had a 10.5. Now I have an 11.5 and a 12. I am a slow swinger. My drives are good. I think it is a combo of loft, hitting up on the teed ball and the shaft in the club. Thanks for the topic. Regards, -Marv

[Hacker James]

I am going the other way. I have found that with an adjustable driver set at its lowest setting of 8.5 provides me the best results. This is counter intuitive until you consider the way the adjustable functions. With the lower loft settings, the club face is actually more open. The static loft of the club remains unchanged regardless of the setting, but the variation in the way the shaft fits in the adapter changes the dynamic loft at impact. Other people may experience different results. Some of it is mere optics that cause you to set up in a manner that "looks" right to you. 

[MarvChamp]

@Hacker James what is dynamic loft and static loft? I have an adjustable driver and would like to understand. Yhank, -Marv

[Hacker James]

4 hours ago, MarvChamp said:

@Hacker James what is dynamic loft and static loft? I have an adjustable driver and would like to understand. Yhank, -Marv

Tom Wishon has a very good article regarding the myths of adjustable drivers or something like that. Basically,, static loft is the loft the driver was built with by the manufacturer. i.e. 9.5, 10 11.5 12, e.t.c.  It is fixed.  Dynamic loft is the effective loft at impact and is affected by many factors, attack angle, path. Adjusting the lie angle of the shaft, changes the loft. These changes in lie and face angle dictate the so-called lofts of the adjustable drivers.  I am sure there are references right here in the forum. Or someone can point to it. I would have looked it up, but I just got home and dropped in for a minute.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Hacker James

[MarvChamp]

1 minute ago, Hacker James said:

Adjusting the lie angle of the shaft, changes the loft.

Thank you. I will try to find Wishon's article. I set the adjustable driver face angle to "neutral" and loft to 12 degrees. Only then was I able to hit it satisfactorily.  Could not when the face angle was closed or open. I was wondering why that was.  Thanks again, -Marv

[Hacker James]

9 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

Thank you. I will try to find Wishon's article. I set the adjustable driver face angle to "neutral" and loft to 12 degrees. Only then was I able to hit it satisfactorily.  Could not when the face angle was closed or open. I was wondering why that was.  Thanks again, -Marv

Here is one...   http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf  He also has a you tube somewhere on the subject  (just google Tom Wishon adjustable lofts)

generally speaking, the higher lofts result from closed face angle. combined with a corresponding change in lie angle. You cannot adjust one without affecting the other. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Hacker James

[Buckeyebowman]

20 hours ago, Hacker James said:

Here is one...   http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf  He also has a you tube somewhere on the subject  (just google Tom Wishon adjustable lofts)

generally speaking, the higher lofts result from closed face angle. combined with a corresponding change in lie angle. You cannot adjust one without affecting the other. 

True that! And I'd suggest that both adjustments would do most amateurs world of good!

[1badbadger]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:26 AM, Don Golfo said:

https://mygolfspy.com/mygolfspy-labs-the-driver-fitting-study/

Came across this interesting article.  Given that an optimum launch angle for average golfers appears to be 17-19 degrees and hitting up plus shaft lag adds 5-7 degrees, this suggests the average golfer should be using a 12 degree driver? Slow swingers more like 13-15 degrees? 

Looking forward to the machismo flowing !!!?

I'm not sure I buy figures 2, 3 and 4 from that article...especially 3 and 4.  In fig. 4 (180 mph ball speed, which is about 122 mph swing speed) it shows to achieve maximum distance the ball should be launched at 18-19* with 1000-1400 rpms of spin?  First, it's almost impossible to launch a driver at 19*, even if it has 12* of loft.  Yes, high launch/low spin is what we try to achieve, but there is a point where you could go too far with that concept.  If the ball doesn't have enough spin, it will act like a knuckleball and "float" around and get pushed by the wind, rather than piercing through the air like a bullet.  It will also fall out of the sky too soon, because spin is what helps keep the ball in the air. This is what happens when the ball doesn't have enough spin:

And this is a good example of optimizing loft:

[Don Golfo]

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

I'm not sure I buy figures 2, 3 and 4 from that article...especially 3 and 4.  In fig. 4 (180 mph ball speed, which is about 122 mph swing speed) it shows to achieve maximum distance the ball should be launched at 18-19* with 1000-1400 rpms of spin?  First, it's almost impossible to launch a driver at 19*, even if it has 12* of loft.  Yes, high launch/low spin is what we try to achieve, but there is a point where you could go too far with that concept.  If the ball doesn't have enough spin, it will act like a knuckleball and "float" around and get pushed by the wind, rather than piercing through the air like a bullet.  It will also fall out of the sky too soon, because spin is what helps keep the ball in the air. This is what happens when the ball doesn't have enough spin:

And this is a good example of optimizing loft:

Great contribution! I was sceptical about the higher lofts quoted for the higher ball speeds too.  The data simply doesn't align with  measurements on tour players who are achieving comparable distances (300 + yard drives) at comparable ball speeds.  I think Adam Scott for example typically achieves a launch angle of around 12 degrees.  I have carried out my own launch monitor experiments setting my driver at lofts of between 11 and 12.5 degrees.  What I've seen is that the higher lofts do slightly increase the launch angle and give a somewhat better carry although the difference is quite small; probably a few extra yards.  That may be explained by a lack of consistency on my part as my launch angle varies from 14.5 degrees to 16 degrees regardless of the driver loft setting.  I found that varying (increasing) tee height had more of an influence as it significantly improved smash factor and reduced back spin (from 3000 rpm to 2700 rpm).  I think the reason for this is that it helped me to hit the ball higher on the club face more consistently.  The optimum setup seems to be 12.5 degrees of loft with the ball centreline slightly above the top edge of the driver face. That gets me into the 230-240 yards range on my better shots with a swing speed of around 90 mph and a ball speed of roughly 130 mph.

[1badbadger]

15 hours ago, Don Golfo said:

Great contribution! I was sceptical about the higher lofts quoted for the higher ball speeds too.  The data simply doesn't align with  measurements on tour players who are achieving comparable distances (300 + yard drives) at comparable ball speeds.  I think Adam Scott for example typically achieves a launch angle of around 12 degrees.  I have carried out my own launch monitor experiments setting my driver at lofts of between 11 and 12.5 degrees.  What I've seen is that the higher lofts do slightly increase the launch angle and give a somewhat better carry although the difference is quite small; probably a few extra yards.  That may be explained by a lack of consistency on my part as my launch angle varies from 14.5 degrees to 16 degrees regardless of the driver loft setting.  I found that varying (increasing) tee height had more of an influence as it significantly improved smash factor and reduced back spin (from 3000 rpm to 2700 rpm).  I think the reason for this is that it helped me to hit the ball higher on the club face more consistently.  The optimum setup seems to be 12.5 degrees of loft with the ball centreline slightly above the top edge of the driver face. That gets me into the 230-240 yards range on my better shots with a swing speed of around 90 mph and a ball speed of roughly 130 mph.

Excellent points Don.  As you pointed out, there are a lot of different things that affect the launch angle...the loft of the club, the tee height, ball position, shaft, the ball, swing path, where the ball impacts the clubface...all of these will have an affect on how high the ball launches.  The higher the swing speed, the less loft and spin are needed for an efficient trajectory.  Slower swings need more loft and spin to keep the ball in the air longer.  But unless you hit the ball off the crown of the driver, I don't know how anyone would launch the ball at 17-19*.  And the chart that shows 100 mph ball speed...that would be about 66-68 mph swing speed.  I'm not sure how relevant that is, unless it's for junior players maybe. 

Having said all of this, in my experience almost all players launch the ball too low, and would benefit from more loft.  I play a 12* and don't hit it too high.  I think you hit on a key point...the sweet spot on modern drivers is above the center of the face.  Guys who try to hit the middle of the club will launch the ball lower and with more spin.  

[onthehunt526]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:31 PM, 1badbadger said:

Excellent points Don.  As you pointed out, there are a lot of different things that affect the launch angle...the loft of the club, the tee height, ball position, shaft, the ball, swing path, where the ball impacts the clubface...all of these will have an affect on how high the ball launches.  The higher the swing speed, the less loft and spin are needed for an efficient trajectory.  Slower swings need more loft and spin to keep the ball in the air longer.  But unless you hit the ball off the crown of the driver, I don't know how anyone would launch the ball at 17-19*.  And the chart that shows 100 mph ball speed...that would be about 66-68 mph swing speed.  I'm not sure how relevant that is, unless it's for junior players maybe. 

Having said all of this, in my experience almost all players launch the ball too low, and would benefit from more loft.  I play a 12* and don't hit it too high.  I think you hit on a key point...the sweet spot on modern drivers is above the center of the face.  Guys who try to hit the middle of the club will launch the ball lower and with more spin.  

Most of us amateurs play too little loft in our drivers. There isn't any argument from me there. 

@1badbadger I know it seems impossible to launch a driver at 17°-19°, but it is not only possible but plausible. Static loft has a little to do with it, but it's more dynamic loft, angle of attack, strike location, etc. that effects launch angle and spin angle. 

You would think that you'd need a club with a 7 or 8 iron loft of so, to achieve that launch angle. But not really. 

When some people chose to play Mini-Drivers, their numbers were better for two reasons, more loft plus shorter shaft. 

@1badbadger do you remember when the driver heads were smaller? I played a 8.5° KZG Maraging Steel, when I was in my teens. That thing launched so high, it would seed clouds... I actually had to special order a 5° head to get the launch angle down. (44" Stiff flex shaft)... And it was fine. 

I think with today's adjustable driver heads (most of which have a huge fade bias), you need more loft than you realize, and probably a 43.5" to 44.5" playing length. It actually helps with launch angle and lowering spin for the average golfer... Because you make better contact, and AoA is more on the positive.

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:31 PM, 1badbadger said:

 The higher the swing speed, the less loft and spin are needed for an efficient trajectory. 

Having said all of this, in my experience almost all players launch the ball too low, and would benefit from more loft.  I play a 12* and don't hit it too high.  I think you hit on a key point...the sweet spot on modern drivers is above the center of the face.  Guys who try to hit the middle of the club will launch the ball lower and with more spin.  

Exactly! I've attended the WGC Bridgestone in several occasions. It's amazing how high some of those guy hit the Driver! I can't hit a full wedge that high!

[iacas]

21 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Exactly! I've attended the WGC Bridgestone in several occasions. It's amazing how high some of those guy hit the Driver! I can't hit a full wedge that high!

Neither do they.

[billchao]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:18 PM, onthehunt526 said:

@1badbadger I know it seems impossible to launch a driver at 17°-19°, but it is not only possible but plausible. Static loft has a little to do with it, but it's more dynamic loft, angle of attack, strike location, etc. that effects launch angle and spin angle. 

I don't know, man. Even Long Drive pros champions don't launch the ball that high. Control becomes an issue if the ball is launched too high with too little spin.

Tim Burke's Trackman Numbers

Jamie Sadlowski's Trackman Numbers

On 11/2/2017 at 8:18 PM, onthehunt526 said:

I played a 8.5° KZG Maraging Steel, when I was in my teens. That thing launched so high, it would seed clouds... I actually had to special order a 5° head to get the launch angle down. (44" Stiff flex shaft)... And it was fine. 

It could have been too much spin caused the ball to climb, that's not the same as launching the ball high.

[Don Golfo]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

I don't know, man. Even Long Drive pros champions don't launch the ball that high. Control becomes an issue if the ball is launched too high with too little spin.

Tim Burke's Trackman Numbers

Jamie Sadlowski's Trackman Numbers

It could have been too much spin caused the ball to climb, that's not the same as launching the ball high.

Looking at both these guys it's interesting to see how different their launch conditions are yet both hit it a very long way? Sadlowski seems to be able to make quite a lot out of his significantly slower swing and ball speed presumably due to a much higher launch angle even with a relatively high spin rate.  My reflection here is that there are likely a number of optimal, or approaching optimal, launch conditions that will maximise driving distance.  I just don't think you can say that everybody should aim for 17 degrees launch and 1700 rpm spin.  The reality is you need to find a driver and shaft combination that maximises your distance more or less through a process of trial and error with a club fitter guiding you.

[billchao]

48 minutes ago, Don Golfo said:

Looking at both these guys it's interesting to see how different their launch conditions are yet both hit it a very long way? Sadlowski seems to be able to make quite a lot out of his significantly slower swing and ball speed presumably due to a much higher launch angle even with a relatively high spin rate.  

It's mostly ball speed. That's like 90% of the battle.

49 minutes ago, Don Golfo said:

My reflection here is that there are likely a number of optimal, or approaching optimal, launch conditions that will maximise driving distance.

Fitting and optimizing trajectory is a pretty personal thing so I hesitate to make a generalization about what most people should do, and even then, distance isn't the only factor. The article you linked even showed a good example of a fitting where driver B was longer, yet driver A was clearly the superior driver for that player.

1 hour ago, Don Golfo said:

I just don't think you can say that everybody should aim for 17 degrees launch and 1700 rpm spin.

I'd take it one step further and say 17° and 1700 rpm isn't even for most people. There's a ball speed component involved to get benefit from that launch condition that most people can't achieve. If you don't swing fast enough, you need higher spin to help get the ball up in the air and keep it there. 

Plus, part of reducing the spin that much caused drivers to be so penal on mis-hits that it wasn't worth the trade-off of sacrificing forgiveness on off-center hits just to have better numbers on centered strikes because most people miss it more than they pure it. Taylormade stumbled into the high launch, low spin thing with the SLDR, but there's a reason the entire driver market didn't shift towards that design. In fact, many manufacturers make the conscious decision not to go that far with low spin, specifically citing forgiveness as the reason.

1 hour ago, Don Golfo said:

The reality is you need to find a driver and shaft combination that maximises your distance more or less through a process of trial and error with a club fitter guiding you.

I've always believed that clubfitting is more about reducing the impact of your misses than simply trying to get the most out of your best shots, but I agree with you. It's important to find what best suits your swing and not just go by generalizations.