New-ish vids from Grant Waite, Trackman Maestro, Sasho MacKenzie

[nevets88]

So winter is coming, which means more time in front of the boob tube watching instruction videos. Have not been keeping up and watching the vids below.

MacKenzie talks torque, net force, moments (force, inertia), the couple. Plus shallowing and another take on the most important position in golf and it's not impact. Meaty dense video. Waite applies these concepts in the following videos. I've been throwing the club out from the top forever, @iacas got me fixing that a couple of years back and only now can I say I'm really starting to get it (my athletic IQ isn't that great). Golf is hard but feels much less like this unexplained black box now.

 

 

[Hacker James]

Coincidental.  I have been working with a training aid and a drill called "under and over", that basically achieves the same thing and practically makes it impossible to slice.  In that last video with Grant Waite, I find that it promotes a higher launch angle and presumably more distance, although I have not taken it out to the course yet.   I am surprized to see Grant paired up with Joe Mayo still.

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

Coincidental.  I have been working with a training aid and a drill called "under and over", that basically achieves the same thing and practically makes it impossible to slice.  In that last video with Grant Waite, I find that it promotes a higher launch angle and presumably more distance, although I have not taken it out to the course yet.   I am surprized to see Grant paired up with Joe Mayo still.

Don't know if he's paired up- he probably told Joe that "I'll do it if you shut up."

The live lesson from Grant is similar or the same motion as George Gankas employs when he teaches in the LA area. But Gankas thinks it shallows best by no manipulation - just by relaxing the arms and the rotation motion, the shallowing should occur, although he says you can consciously shallow. The extension-ulnar lingo always drives me nutz - I need to see it - I like what Waite is doing because NOT shallowing out in the way he shows with the wrist can lead to low and left if wrist is not flat or extended? Not accustomed to the lingo

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mr. Desmond

[nevets88]

There is a similarity in a lot of instruction I'm seeing now, the moves in the video. GG, DD, Grant Waite, instructors on Instagram.  Whether it's a "fad" or not, remains to be seen, but it must be working if it's so popular. At least from my own experience, it's working. GG's students, I see a lot of them doing a DD, David Duval (or Annika Sorenstam) that is not Dana Dahlquist. They are turning their heads with the rotation.

In the first video, Mayo says the most important position is the transition/top of swing, not impact. But I'd argue the top/transition is a move, not a position. I'd also argue to move away from saying some one position is the most important. Reductivism does not work well in golf instruction.

[billchao]

You have to buy the videos to watch them? I'll pass. I probably know what they're saying anyway.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

There is a similarity in a lot of instruction I'm seeing now, the moves in the video.

Uhhhh… yes.

Getting tired of seeing the GG squat thing, that nobody really does in their swing. The problem with these, too, is that they seem to do it for every freaking student.

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

In the first video, Mayo says the most important position is the transition/top of swing, not impact. But I'd argue the top/transition is a move, not a position. I'd also argue to move away from saying some one position is the most important. Reductivism does not work well in golf instruction.

I agree with that stuff.

I get what he's saying. Impact can look good but it matters how you got there, and what direction things are going. Impact as a position doesn't have any direction, any velocity, any motion.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You have to buy the videos to watch them? I'll pass. I probably know what they're saying anyway.

Yeah.

Dave and I may go this route soon too. It can be a reasonable return and a low-cost way of getting instruction out there.

[Mr. Desmond]

I've got to laugh -- every time I do that GG Squat and then try that right knee thing and wait that long to push - it's too much. Then I say to myself, "Self, you know how to swing a golf club, just finish the darn swing."

I used some of GG Golf Swing Tips to open up the hips and shoulders more, the vids also reminded me to get my hands high and wide in the backswing and not pull down, and to get the legs more active and finish the swing - so from that viewpoint, it's served as a supplement to personal instruction. Same stuff my instructior gives but GG gives a little more meat.

I've slo-moe'd GG's swing and that right leg does what he says it does, but of course, it's not exaggerated - what he does with students is an over the top exaggeration. And that left foot on the toes at the start of the downswing with the heel up and  the toes twisting to open up the knee? No way can I do that with consistent results. Maybe he's exaggerating that, too, but I am no ballerina. I do like that he tells us to beware the collapsing tral leg. Lots of good stuff, but it can be too much.

If you look at Grant's student, it's a similar trail leg movement he is making at the beginning of the vid. It's not exaggerated. GG uses Grant as a model at contact as to the opening of the hips and shoulders. But that  over the top squat thing can be dangerous to your swing.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mr. Desmond

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You have to buy the videos to watch them? I'll pass. I probably know what they're saying anyway.

Lots of free videos on youtube - GG Swing Tips. 

But he does have an organized series of lessons that discusses a topic such as Grip, Posture, Backswing, Downswing, Contact, etc. They go for about $18 each, some are less. His approach is definitely designed to a younger generation than mine - and at first, you think he's full of it because of the attitude, but the more you watch, the more you recognize this guy has collected a wealth of knowledge - now, some of the terms, which if you are on TST, you recognize. But it's good. Peace Out.

Yes, it seems a low cost way of getting material out there - I have a few of the $18 packages and you can get everything for a lifetime for $450, and all new additional vids. So if Erik and Dave go that route, it seems like they'd be doing a great service to the golfing community at an affordable price. I do think some of GG's attraction is the presentation - the mouth is always going and he is sometimes spontaneous, full of himself, very casual, at times not suitable, a bit humorous, and it appeals apparently to 10-35 yrs old, which is what I've seen on youtube.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mr. Desmond

[Hacker James]

6 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Don't know if he's paired up- he probably told Joe that "I'll do it if you shut up."

The live lesson from Grant is similar or the same motion as George Gankas employs when he teaches in the LA area. But Gankas thinks it shallows best by no manipulation - just by relaxing the arms and the rotation motion, the shallowing should occur, although he says you can consciously shallow. The extension-ulnar lingo always drives me nutz - I need to see it - I like what Waite is doing because NOT shallowing out in the way he shows with the wrist can lead to low and left if wrist is not flat or extended? Not accustomed to the lingo

I really do not like "contrived" swings, or any sort of manipulation. BUT....if you are shown how to perform a certain action even though it may be exaggerated and/or contrived, and you continue practicing with it until it is NO LONGER contrived, then sometimes it is all well and good. It has been said, that a lot of good things, feel weird at first especially if they are used to stop doing something bad. 

Kind of like the guy who was beating his head on the post, and was asked "why, do you do that?", he replies "Because, it feels so good when I stop"

Edited November 1, 2017 by Hacker James

[Mr. Desmond]

42 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I really do not like "contrived" swings, or any sort of manipulation. BUT....if you are shown how to perform a certain action even though it may be exaggerated and/or contrived, and you continue practicing with it until it is NO LONGER contrived, then sometimes it is all well and good. It has been said, that a lot of good things, feel weird at first especially if they are used to stop doing something bad. 

Kind of like the guy who was beating his head on the post, and was asked "why, do you do that?", he replies "Because, it feels so good when I stop"

Agreed - I think the GG squat exaggeration turns off a lot of people, and it's a move for which you may need  professional help. I like the range bucket between the legs as my exercise for this "famous squat and turn" move as he calls it. He has a whole 13 lesson vid on it - each is 3-5 minutes. You create the gap at the beginning of the downswing so the bucket falls. I thought the left toe with heel in the air was a bit much in trying to turn the front knee - certainly helps with less stress on the knee but I don't think it's necessary. I think the range bucket drill is a good way to get the "squat" separation and get the lower body active.

I also like the way he explains golf as a game of opposites and matching patterns. He got me away from early extension with a more upright posture at address - it's the same or similar to what Erik teaches, I believe, rounded shoulders, butt in, not much knee bend - but the more upright posture at address allows you to squat more at the beginning of the downswing - turn that left knee and you will squat. Game of opposites.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Mr. Desmond

[billchao]

I didn't realize you can watch the live lesson video, just watched it now. I've seen that lesson before. I was there when @iacas gave @nevets88 a similar lesson two years ago. Guess that makes me ahead of the curve #trendsetter

[Jack Watson]

GG and others are all looking for this thing and it's sacrifice neutral spine alignment and use the spine as an axis of rotation.  Drop clubhead below hands force vector early.

Good science but imo very very bad for 99 percent of folks.  

I prefer Malaska concepts although imo he's off too in terms of what the true motion drivers are.

Sure can you generate a lot of speed this way. 

It can also be done other ways. 

I don't care much for Mayo or GG or Waite.  Imo if you are a rotator there's no need to add some hands manipulation at transition as with pure rotation and no pull down the clubhead will move out behind you and shallow.

gg says hands stay up sure that's great then you gotta tumble like hell to do it well.

My opinion is based on my personal efforts to achieve early shallowing which resulted in garbage results.  what they are talking about is a way to make golf WAY WAY WAY harder than it needs to be,  now,  if you are willing to sacrifice your body to these guys you can hit it far.  That's true.

It can also be done other ways.  

Search Butch Harmon Tiger Woods number 2...Oh screw it I will put it up...

Tiger 2000 was not doing what guys love now...I know why.

[mvmac]

It's partially a fad and partially correct info. It's become more popular because of research/information from these guys.

Gankas and Como are buddies, Dana and Como are buddies, Grant and Como are buddies, so this info is going to effect their teaching. I think some of this stuff is too exaggerated, not everyone has to get as shallow or as open as they advocate. Yes a lot of great players are well open at impact but that doesn't mean you can't play really good golf if you're 5-10 degrees more closed of Jordon Spieth.

Some players need to feel more open, some need to feel the weight go forward, it depends. And as we know what actually happens and what you feel can be completely different things. These instructors know that but there is also a marketing aspect to what they share. It's part of creating their brand and putting out a product to better players or players that search for golf information online. Not saying this is a bad thing, just a more effective way to market yourself than trying to cater to everyone. Better players generally have less of a need to focus on getting the weight forward and grew up being taught to hold the wrist angles or pull down from the top to create lag.

Even though the getting open/shallowing/pressure back may be a bit of a fad, it's still waaaay better than where instruction was 5,10, 20 years ago. Just be careful implementing something just because you see a general instruction video that isn't specific to your swing. Just because the club shallows doesn't mean you consciously need to feel it. If an 18 handicapper came to Dana or Gankas and was keeping the weight back and pulling across the ball they would be getting a completely different lesson than what they post with their better players.

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Tiger 2000 was not doing what guys love now...I know why.

Tiger isn't demonstrating what those guys are doing, big difference. 

[Hacker James]

Sasho reminds me of Bob Denver (Gilligan).

anyway...other than consciously laying down the club early in the d/s, is there a way to achieve the Ulnar Deviation?  I have tried to swing the way they are suggesting and it is hit or miss. If I relax, I can do it readily, but it feels like a loss of power. OTOH, I also noticed that the ball seems to have higher trajectory from the get go.

[colin007]

On 10/30/2017 at 7:43 PM, nevets88 said:

So winter is coming, which means more time in front of the boob tube watching instruction videos. Have not been keeping up and watching the vids below.

MacKenzie talks torque, net force, moments (force, inertia), the couple. Plus shallowing and another take on the most important position in golf and it's not impact. Meaty dense video. Waite applies these concepts in the following videos. I've been throwing the club out from the top forever, @iacas got me fixing that a couple of years back and only now can I say I'm really starting to get it (my athletic IQ isn't that great). Golf is hard but feels much less like this unexplained black box now.

 

 

That last video lesson and that laying down move looks like Danny Berger's swing.

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

Sasho reminds me of Bob Denver (Gilligan).

anyway...other than consciously laying down the club early in the d/s, is there a way to achieve the Ulnar Deviation?  I have tried to swing the way they are suggesting and it is hit or miss. If I relax, I can do it readily, but it feels like a loss of power. OTOH, I also noticed that the ball seems to have higher trajectory from the get go.

I don't consciously lay it down - if your arms are relaxed, the club will lay down - now the ulnar thing may help square the club so you just open/turn the hips and chest and not manipulate through impact. I've found that if the wrist is cupped a little, you will have a closed face at impact - or I think that is what is happening - because I'm not trying to manipulate the clubface at impact - yet. I think GG wants you to turn it down so you have less dynamic loft at impact - turn that 9i into an 8i.

Trajectory -extends the hips and belt for higher trajectory (my stock preference), don't extend as much for lower trajectory (like DJ).

[Hacker James]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I don't consciously lay it down - if your arms are relaxed, the club will lay down - now the ulnar thing may help square the club so you just open/turn the hips and chest and not manipulate through impact. I've found that if the wrist is cupped a little, you will have a closed face at impact - or I think that is what is happening - because I'm not trying to manipulate the clubface at impact - yet. I think GG wants you to turn it down so you have less dynamic loft at impact - turn that 9i into an 8i.

Trajectory -extends the hips and belt for higher trajectory (my stock preference), don't extend as much for lower trajectory (like DJ).

Maybe I am doing in backwards? I thought that he turned his wrist turned clockwise a little which will open the face and also promote an inside to outside swing path. I do not have a cupped wrist. It is not always bowed, but it is always flat. ( well, most of the time).

[Mr. Desmond]

4 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

Maybe I am doing in backwards? I thought that he turned his wrist turned clockwise a little which will open the face and also promote an inside to outside swing path. I do not have a cupped wrist. It is not always bowed, but it is always flat. ( well, most of the time).

I saw it as flattening the wrist even more. GG is pretty adamant about a passive clubhead (except for the turn down, which I don't yet do).