New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Actually, I think the VROs will likely catch more things than the casual observer.

I don't.

1. Most weeks there is simply nothing to report. The rules are often pretty easy to follow, and PGA Tour pros call over officials frequently.
2. Even thousands of people are often better than one or two people at spotting things.

Kinda beside the point, but whatever.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

But you are okay with it if it comes to light after the trophy has been handed out?  

I can't say that I'm okay with a breach going unpenalized for any reason, but in all practicality, there has to be a point of completion for a competition, and the most logical ending is when the winner has been rewarded.

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Sure, but that's because you are following the rules to the best of your ability much like all the pro players. The difference is they get televised call ins in addition to your partners who happen to see you make mistakes.

This is veering off topic, but the issue here is not that the players should be allowed to get away with violating rules. All sides think they should be penalized for the offence, the difference is should people be allowed to call in and should it be only special VRO that can change the outcome and finally the 2 stroke incorrect signed card penalty.

Sorry about that. . .

My issue with the bold part is that it's quite obvious that a great many pros are NOT bothering to learn the rules to the best of their ability, and now they want to have a safety net for that omission. 

If a player is getting wealthy at playing golf, then I can think of no possible excuse for his not doing everything in his power to know the rules of his game before he steps up to the first tee.  He may seem to be playing to what he knows of the rules, but has he really made a reasonable effort to know them as well as he should?  In far too many cases the answer is "No!" 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Fourputt

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

My issue with the bold part is that it's quite obvious that a great many pros are NOT bothering to learn the rules to the best of their ability, and now they want to have a safety net for that omission. 

Although I believe you, I'm very surprised this is true?!?

If this is really the case, I can see your viewpoint of assessing the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard, but I still find it shocking.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Although I believe you, I'm very surprised this is true?!?

If this is really the case, I can see your viewpoint of assessing the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard, but I still find it shocking.

It's true.

[Nutsmacker]

My problem with this is that it seems to have been predicated on the outrage of the Lexi Thompson debacle.  It is a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad social media publicity; which seems to be the norm nowadays.  The main issue is that most of the negative reaction was from passing fans that love to give their two cents on every divisive issue there is.  

They ended up hurting the game by trying to satisfy a number of people that A)don't really watch golf and B) Don't play it or play it enough to understand what Lexi did.  At best it was a mental collapse and at worse she altered her lie on purpose...which is what I believe.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nutsmacker

[rehmwa]

21 minutes ago, Nutsmacker said:

The main issue is that most of the negative reaction was from passing fans that love to give their two cents on every divisive issue there is. 

You mean like on golf discussion boards and website?

Quote

trying to satisfy a number of people that A)don't really watch golf and B) Don't play it or play it enough to understand

It's also by fans, that fund the whole thing, that think "that might be ME" - but it'll never be them. 

I think it might help most to realize that we're talking about professional sports, not 4 guys worried about impacting their weekend game of breakfast balls, mulligans, gimmes, and bloody marys.  So the discussion has to avoid the empathy response and really just keep the "it's the pros" context in place.

Like most things - Once I did that, I don't (personally) much care if they change the rules or not at this point. I'm more interested in how it gets implemented and whether or not my experience as a fan will be improved, or lessened.  I just won't know until it playes out over a season or two.

Agree or not - the fan base likely has more in common with football fans, than it does the single digit handicap golfer group here.  So I fully expect a lot of disappointment.

I can 'believe' whatever I ilke about Lexi, Dustin, or Hideki's (or any other example).  Belief is not 'knowing' and I can't read minds.  those tournaments were still fun to watch.  The drama itself was 'less' entertaining for me - perhaps it's what others live for.  We'll see over time.

Edited December 12, 2017 by rehmwa

[iacas]

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

You mean like on golf discussion boards and website?

I'll let @Nutsmacker answer, of course, but I don't think he meant those kinds of people, no. I think he meant that a lot of the loudest commentary came from people who don't really understand the game at the level many of us here do.

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

Like most things - Once I did that, I don't (personally) much care if they change the rules or not at this point.

These rules do affect you. Not the "call-in" stuff, but the removal of the two-stroke penalty for a player who "didn't know" (or just says believably that he didn't know, despite his responsibility to know) can affect you.

[Nutsmacker]

9 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

u mean like on golf discussion boards and website?

No, I mean there was an immediate flurry of Facebook, twitter, etc. posts from individuals that A) Don't really watch golf and B) Don't play it or play it enough to understand what Lexi did.  

Golf discussion boards are places where I believe most people here take the game seriously enough to understand what is going on out there...or at least enough to question it.  

The "fans" you speak of are not the ones that fund the tour.  The people on Golf discussion boards are much more likely to be the ones that spend the money to play and attend the events.

My point is that they seem to have catered to the wrong group of people.  The group that commented to the like of "what is an inch do on a 500 yd hole?" is the group that I am referring to.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nutsmacker

[Hardluckster]

Ignorance will be rewarded, if I read the new rules correctly. 

Like a lot of other issues in today's society, the requirement for personal accountability is decreased rather than stressed. 

[Lihu]

12 hours ago, Hardluckster said:

Ignorance will be rewarded, if I read the new rules correctly. 

I'm still amazed that some pros are really saying they don't know/or actually don't learn the rules just so they can sign a scorecard and hope they don't get caught. . .

 

Quote

Like a lot of other issues in today's society, the requirement for personal accountability is decreased rather than stressed. 

It started with people working in the government not being accountable for their actions. Trickled its way back to us. Fortunately, that's now starting to change.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Lihu

[Groucho Valentine]

I guess we need to go and review every tournament Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus ever won. Gotta make sure they won fair and square too, you know. If not, PENALTY STROKES must be applied. 

[Lihu]

11 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I guess we need to go and review every tournament Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus ever won. Gotta make sure they won fair and square too, you know. If not, PENALTY STROKES must be applied. 

We know about Bobby Jones. I’d guess Nicklaus,Palmer and especially Hogan didn’t cheat. He’d probably rather lose than lose his Hawkish edge over his competition who likely did cheat and we’re caught by him doing so.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I guess we need to go and review every tournament Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus ever won. Gotta make sure they won fair and square too, you know. If not, PENALTY STROKES must be applied. 

Nobody's saying that. AFAIK nobody's ever said that. When the tournament is over, except for 34-1b, it's over.

Stop being a cad.

[rehmwa]

23 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I guess we need to go and review every tournament Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus ever won. Gotta make sure they won fair and square too, you know. If not, PENALTY STROKES must be applied. 

If the video was a good as today, then I'm sure they did their best and didn't break any rule on purpose - maybe stuff would be found that they didn't know about like today's issues.  So what?  Those tourneys over and everyone played on an equal field.

And with some of the old video - I'd challenge people to find the ball itself.  Let alone tiny movements or grains of sand or even locations of old divots.

Edited December 13, 2017 by rehmwa

[NM Golf]

35 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I guess we need to go and review every tournament Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus ever won. Gotta make sure they won fair and square too, you know. If not, PENALTY STROKES must be applied. 

You have to realize the ridiculousness of this statement, are you just trolling to get a reaction? There is obviously a point where the competition is over.

Like I said earlier I just wonder how this will all play out when the public catches a rule infraction that the tournament committee does not. I don't care how good these TOUR rules guys are, a couple of people will not catch things as well as a million viewers at home. What happens if people start tweeting about something they missed? Does the committee just turn a blind eye to something like Lexi obviously not replacing her ball correctly? Do tournament officials have to stay off social media during an event as to not be influenced by the general public? 

Edited December 13, 2017 by NM Golf

[iacas]

1 minute ago, NM Golf said:

You have to realize the ridiculousness of this statement, are you just trolling to get a reaction?

That's it in a nutshell. @Jack Watson was guilty of the same thing; incapable or unwilling to actually discuss, but rather just trolling for a reaction.

2 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Like I said earlier I just wonder how this will all play out when the public catches a rule infraction that the tournament committee does not. What happens if people start tweeting about something they missed? Does the committee just turn a blind eye to something like Lexi obviously not replacing her ball correctly? Do tournament officials have to stay off social media during an event as to not be influenced by the general public? 

Or do the rules officials just say "we went back and looked at the video, as we do, and we noticed this" while giving no credit to the "tweeters-in"?

Which is what I think they should have done the whole time. I don't actually think many people have literally CALLED in. I think most of the "callers" have been closely associated with the tournament. They knew who to reach on the grounds.

[Groucho Valentine]

3 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

You have to realize the ridiculousness of this statement, are you just trolling to get a reaction? There is obviously a point where the competition is over.

Like I said earlier I just wonder how this will all play out when the public catches a rule infraction that the tournament committee does not. I don't care how good these TOUR rules guys are, a couple of people will not catch things as well as a million viewers at home. What happens if people start tweeting about something they missed? Does the committee just turn a blind eye to something like Lexi obviously not replacing her ball correctly? Do tournament officials have to stay off social media during an event as to not be influenced by the general public? 

Its truth, homey! We must be accurate! 

It doesn't matter if the public catches a infraction and the tournament committee does not. Its none of the publics business. We live with missed calls in ever other sport but seem to have this puritanical belief that the competition must be 100% snow pure in golf. Human errors are inevitable and unpreventable. I can live with it. 

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Or do the rules officials just say "we went back and looked at the video, as we do, and we noticed this" while giving no credit to the "tweeters-in"?

Which is what I think they should have done the whole time. I don't actually think many people have literally CALLED in. I think most of the "callers" have been closely associated with the tournament. They knew who to reach on the grounds.

This is more or less what I think will happen since the callers know what's going on and likely want to remain anonymous. That makes the players who demanded to know who called in more worrisome.