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New Rules for Video Call-Ins


iacas
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The biggest fear for me is that someone wins, and it is known that rules officials did not call a penalty on them due to the source. Then what do the other golfers think, "Oh I got to cheat a bit to win because others are doing it and getting away with it." That will cause rampant attempts to cheat. When it costs them wins and money, you bet cheating will increase.

 

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I don't know if blatant cheating is at the forefront of this.  @iacas hit the nail on the head when he said this has to do with the fact these guys should know the rules but are actually going to benefit from being ignorant. I mean this ruling benefits someone on TOUR when they "unknowingly" break a rule. We are literally asking for a new generation of players to remain uneducated on the rules so they don't have to feign ignorance when they break one.

 

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

The biggest fear for me is that someone wins, and it is known that rules officials did not call a penalty on them due to the source. Then what do the other golfers think, "Oh I got to cheat a bit to win because others are doing it and getting away with it." That will cause rampant attempts to cheat. When it costs them wins and money, you bet cheating will increase.

Obviously, you're not alone in thinking this, but is the game really going down the hellhole because they are taking away the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard? I've not read any concrete arguments against it. No specific realistic examples of how it could lead to a lot more cheating?

The addition of VRO seems to be a good thing, and I'm sure they have phone/text capability. They're not jurors, they can listen to outsiders and act accordingly. In fact, I see a lot more people calling in because the fear of discovering them as snitches is lessened.

Perhaps the incorrect scorecard 2 stroke penalty or DQ should be retained to insure that players actually turn in scorecards that are correct, but does it make the game any better especially if it's a case where the golfer could not tell at the time of the occurrence that a rule was violated?

 

2 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I don't know if blatant cheating is at the forefront of this.  @iacas hit the nail on the head when he said this has to do with the fact these guys should know the rules but are actually going to benefit from being ignorant. I mean this ruling benefits someone on TOUR when they "unknowingly" break a rule. We are literally asking for a new generation of players to remain uneducated on the rules so they don't have to feign ignorance when they break one.

The blatant part is what I'm wondering. It's not even that the player doesn't know the rules so much as he/she might not have perceived there to be an error?

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3 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

a new generation of players to remain uneducated on the rules so they don't have to feign ignorance when they break one.

 

 

 

I really wanted a video that quoted "Plausible Deniability" - but gave up

Bill - 

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13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Obviously, you're not alone in thinking this, but is the game really going down the hellhole because they are taking away the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard? I've not read any concrete arguments against it. No specific realistic examples of how it could lead to a lot more cheating?

Then you haven't read the posts, @Lihu.

Here's one. A kid hits his ball in a water hazard. He drops, doesn't take the penalty, and scores a par. He does this two times more during the round. Maybe he even knows the rules, but figures "hey, worst case, I just get the penalty strokes back, and best case, I save myself three strokes."

There. He has no incentive and a lot of upside.

13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Perhaps the incorrect scorecard 2 stroke penalty or DQ should be retained to insure that players actually turn in scorecards that are correct, but does it make the game any better especially if it's a case where the golfer could not tell at the time of the occurrence that a rule was violated?

It's their responsibility to know these things. To play under the rules.

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Just now, iacas said:

Then you haven't read the posts, @Lihu.

Here's one. A kid hits his ball in a water hazard. He drops, doesn't take the penalty, and scores a par. He does this two times more during the round. Maybe he even knows the rules, but figures "hey, worst case, I just get the penalty strokes back, and best case, I save myself three strokes."

There. He has no incentive and a lot of upside.

That's the problem with this whole topic. There is no way to really tell if it was a mistake or cheating. I just hate that there is no way to tell the difference.

 

Just now, iacas said:

It's their responsibility to know these things. To play under the rules.

I'm just wondering in the case of Lexi if she actually saw that she put the ball in the wrong spot? Or if she was too lazy to replace it even if she knew it was a little off? I know we've been through the analysis, but I still think she might not have been cognizant of her error at the time.

Either way, I guess she should have been assessed the penalty.

 

I suppose I could be convinced that the scorecard DQ or 2 stroke should still be maintained as well.

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1 minute ago, Lihu said:

That's the problem with this whole topic. There is no way to really tell if it was a mistake or cheating. I just hate that there is no way to tell the difference.

Who ****ing cares?

The guy (or kid) failed in his responsibility to write down the proper score. It's that simple. And now he'll lack the incentive to do so, because, as has been said multiple times, worst case he just gets the penalty he actually incurred (and about which there is NO question).

Right?

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

I'm just wondering in the case of Lexi if she actually saw that she put the ball in the wrong spot? Or if she was too lazy to replace it even if she knew it was a little off? I know we've been through the analysis, but I still think she might not have been cognizant of her error at the time.

Either way, I guess she should have been assessed the penalty.

Who ****ing cares? She clearly broke the rule. There is no question about that. You even acknowledge that then.

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

I suppose I could be convinced that the scorecard DQ or 2 stroke should still be maintained as well.

Cool.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'm just wondering in the case of Lexi if she actually saw that she put the ball in the wrong spot? Or if she was too lazy to replace it even if she knew it was a little off? I know we've been through the analysis, but I still think she might not have been cognizant of her error at the time.

I suggest you watch the video again.   She doesn't pick the ball up more than two inches off the ground and in the same motion puts the ball in a different place.  I would like an explanation of why she would do that if the intention was not to alter her lie.  There is no lining up the mark on the ball, there is no cleaning of the ball, her eyes never leave the ground where she is putting the ball.  In addition, she is marking the ball from the side.  I have seen her do this multiple times when it is not at all necessary.  Why would she constantly be marking her ball from the side?

 

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Just now, Nutsmacker said:

I suggest you watch the video again.   She doesn't pick the ball up more than two inches off the ground and in the same motion puts the ball in a different place.  I would like an explanation of why she would do that if the intention was not to alter her lie.  There is no lining up the mark on the ball, there is no cleaning of the ball, her eyes never leave the ground where she is putting the ball.  In addition, she is marking the ball from the side.  I have seen her do this multiple times when it is not at all necessary.  Why would she constantly be marking her ball from the side?

Yeah, even if I use the fatigue argument, it's still not a good reason to be saved from the misplacement penalty. She should have known and just reported herself, and let her fans know she was too tired or whatever to replace it correctly. It's kind of like missing a 2 foot putt. 

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1 minute ago, Nutsmacker said:

I suggest you watch the video again.   She doesn't pick the ball up more than two inches off the ground and in the same motion puts the ball in a different place.  I would like an explanation of why she would do that if the intention was not to alter her lie.  There is no lining up the mark on the ball, there is no cleaning of the ball, her eyes never leave the ground where she is putting the ball.  In addition, she is marking the ball from the side.  I have seen her do this multiple times when it is not at all necessary.  Why would she constantly be marking her ball from the side?

 

Exactly! I have a hard time with the Lexi thing, it sure does look like she moved it over in order to gain something. It's not like she marked, tossed it to her caddy, waited for he fellow competitor to putt, then replaced it forgetting where is was exactly. She barely picked it up.

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3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

That's the problem with this whole topic. There is no way to really tell if it was a mistake or cheating. I just hate that there is no way to tell the difference.

Hardly no one will ever admit to saying, "Yea I cheated."

In the end, people will try to game the system. If you take away the incentive to do so then it is better for everyone else. Especially those who play a complete round by the rules. We should be protecting those people.

34 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Perhaps the incorrect scorecard 2 stroke penalty or DQ should be retained to insure that players actually turn in scorecards that are correct, but does it make the game any better especially if it's a case where the golfer could not tell at the time of the occurrence that a rule was violated?

Yes it makes the game better.

 

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6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Hardly no one will ever admit to saying, "Yea I cheated."

My friend Pete Covert (@Covert's nephew) readily admits to it. :-D

Seriously though, I've seen rampant cheating by higher bogey handicaps and asked about the action while not citing any rule or anything, and I usually get an answer like "I'm not playing for money". They do it generally so they don't have to "hit out of a divot", "get out of jail" or some other excuse.

What I am surprised is that lower handicaps and pros could even think of doing those same types of things, especially in competition? I'd guess "brain fart" over purposeful cheating.

 

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In the end, people will try to game the system. If you take away the incentive to do so then it is better for everyone else. Especially those who play a complete round by the rules. We should be protecting those people.

Yes it makes the game better.

I just hate that we can't tell the difference between a cheater and someone not able to tell. Possibly just from my empathy towards disabilities in general?

I feel that it's not really fair to someone not cognizant to be lumped in with blatant cheaters, but then again I suppose they are competing with the worlds best and should have all the skills to do so under all conditions.

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9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I just hate that we can't tell the difference between a cheater and someone not able to tell. Possibly just from my empathy towards disabilities in general?

I feel that it's not really fair to someone not cognizant to be lumped in with blatant cheaters, but then again I suppose they are competing with the worlds best and should have all the skills to do so under all conditions.

Know the rules better, or be more aware of the actions that could cause a penalty. When in doubt ask the rules official. 

I see no difference in penalizing Tiger for dropping in a wrong spot if he meant it as a way to purposely gain and advantage or not. 

There is no disabilities here. That comparison isn’t even relevant to this. 

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31 minutes ago, Lihu said:

My friend Pete Covert (@Covert's nephew) readily admits to it. :-D

Seriously though, I've seen rampant cheating by higher bogey handicaps and asked about the action while not citing any rule or anything, and I usually get an answer like "I'm not playing for money". They do it generally so they don't have to "hit out of a divot", "get out of jail" or some other excuse.

What I am surprised is that lower handicaps and pros could even think of doing those same types of things, especially in competition? I'd guess "brain fart" over purposeful cheating.

If someone is playing to kicks and giggles, I don't care how they score their round.  So long as it isn't in a competition or for handicap purposes, it makes no difference to me.  If it is a competition or you are using the round for handicap purposes, however, follow the rules.

 

33 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I just hate that we can't tell the difference between a cheater and someone not able to tell. Possibly just from my empathy towards disabilities in general?

I feel that it's not really fair to someone not cognizant to be lumped in with blatant cheaters, but then again I suppose they are competing with the worlds best and should have all the skills to do so under all conditions.

The beauty of the rules (at least as they were written) is that 'not being aware' was not an acceptable excuse.  Every golfer's responsibility is to (1) know the rules and (2) to abide by them.

If everyone did that, there would be no need ever for a 2-stroke scorecard penalty or a DQ.  We all know that isn't realistic, though.

Under the previous rules "I didn't know", "I thought that I did it correctly", "I didn't understand", etc were not acceptable excuses for a rule to be violated - and thus an additional scorecard penalty was warranted.  Not any more, if this local rule is instituted.

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22 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I just hate that we can't tell the difference between a cheater and someone not able to tell. Possibly just from my empathy towards disabilities in general?

I feel that it's not really fair to someone not cognizant to be lumped in with blatant cheaters, but then again I suppose they are competing with the worlds best and should have all the skills to do so under all conditions.

From my memory, most of the rules breached in the notable "call-in" cases, as well as the wrong scorecard cases, have been simple ones, rules that most players learn in their first few years of playing golf.  Three simple choices for a ball in a hazard, not an odd combination of two of them, replace the ball on the green in its original position (not someplace close).  I see no problem at all for penalizing, and stigmatizing, players who are too lazy to learn the basic rules that govern their chosen profession.

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58 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, even if I use the fatigue argument, it's still not a good reason to be saved from the misplacement penalty. She should have known and just reported herself, and let her fans know she was too tired or whatever to replace it correctly. It's kind of like missing a 2 foot putt. 

I wish she owned up to it.   I know this is not the discussion exactly, as we have gone over this time and time again in a different thread.  However, of course she "commented" on the new rules and her statement was total bullocks.  Here is her statement on the new rules. 

"I applaud the USGA and the R&A for their willingness to revise the Rules of Golf to address certain unfortunate situations that have arisen several times in the game of golf," Thompson wrote. "In my case, I am thankful no one else will have to deal with an outcome such as mine in the future.

 

"I will have no further comment on these changes as I look forward to spending time with my family and friends. I hope everyone has an awesome holiday season, and I wish everyone a healthy and happy 2018

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10 minutes ago, Nutsmacker said:

I wish she owned up to it.   I know this is not the discussion exactly, as we have gone over this time and time again in a different thread.  However, of course she "commented" on the new rules and her statement was total bullocks.  Here is her statement on the new rules. 

"I applaud the USGA and the R&A for their willingness to revise the Rules of Golf to address certain unfortunate situations that have arisen several times in the game of golf," Thompson wrote. "In my case, I am thankful no one else will have to deal with an outcome such as mine in the future.

 

"I will have no further comment on these changes as I look forward to spending time with my family and friends. I hope everyone has an awesome holiday season, and I wish everyone a healthy and happy 2018

So basically Lexi is saying she is happy no one else who breaks the rules will get caught? What a crock of :poo:. I am really having a hard time with all these millionaires being fired up about the fact they are not going to be held to a higher standard and made to play by the rules.

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