Caddie picks up ball in hazard- incorrectly?

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

And… the caddie didn't know his player that well. It was like the second week he caddied for him, I think.

Doesn't sound right, at 5:30 in the video they seem to be "friends" and it seems to indicate a lot of familiarity.

I'll take your word on the understanding the rules, since I'm only looking at the rules now and simply interpreting the words that I read in the article. The base assumption that I am missing is that the actions or words stated have to cast "no doubt", so I'll go with what you said.

[RandallT]

Another side of the story emerges:

The official disputes the idea that the player (Rhein Gibson) had gone back to the bag and selected another ball. As the official (Duncan) says, the player expresses some surprise that the caddie (Brandon Davis) had picked it up. If this is true, I'd say case closed, @Lihu. There was ample doubt as to the player's intention, if the official's account is correct.

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/official-disputes-caddies-version-gibson-penalty

Quote

"Contrary to what Brandon said, I did not find the ball," Duncan said. "(Gibson) was kind of looking in the high grass or whatever, and I turned around and said to Rhein that we had found the ball. And the caddie had actually sort of gotten behind me, and Rhein's now walking toward me, and I turn around and that's when (Davis) picked the ball up.

"And before I can even say a word, now Rhein goes, 'Well, I guess I can't play it now.'"

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by RandallT
Fixed names for clarity

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, Golfer gal said:

I don't think caddie knew player very well at all, though he had caddied for him the previous week...

And the player was absolutely in contention, I'm pretty sure he would take a close look at the ball to decide what to do, not just give up and take a drop with a playoff on the line.

Caddie's supposed "rules expert" didn't give him the right number, either.

The video was probably misleading. The caddie clearly stated that he "knew his player well", and was possibly lying?

2 minutes ago, RandallT said:

I'd say case closed, @Lihu.

Already agreed with Erik in the post above yours. What I was questioning is his knowledge of the player?

Edited January 25, 2018 by Lihu

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The video was probably misleading. The caddie clearly stated that he "knew his player well", and was possibly lying?

@Lihu, I don't care how well you know someone. If your son says "****" and turns away after seeing his ball in a lousy spot, that is nowhere near enough for a third party to take as "oh, he is telling me to pick it up." Much more likely… "****! That ball is in a horrible spot and now I probably won't have a chance to win this tournament."

[rehmwa]

Caddie was wrong by assuming without confirming.  No matter how understandable the situation was (which I don't think it was).

It just highlights the importance of team communication.  If either the player or the caddie would have done even a tiny bit of clear communication this is not an issue.

Bad communication - Player says " F*ck", gives up the search, walks towards his bag.  Caddie makes bad assumption and grabs ball.

Better options:

• Player adds his comment, or just replaces his crap comment with something coherent -  "I need to check this out and figure out what to do"  (Problem resolved)
• OR Caddie hears the incoherent comment and ASKS - "Are you taking a drop?  I can get your ball for you"

Best option - deal with your player's tantrum professionally and just not touch the ball until you 'know' what he wants instead of guessing

 

caddie's fault 100%, but the player also owns how he works with his employee

Edited January 25, 2018 by rehmwa

[Lihu]

Just now, iacas said:

@Lihu, I don't care how well you know someone. If your son says "****" and turns away after seeing his ball in a lousy spot, that is nowhere near enough for a third party to take as "oh, he is telling me to pick it up." Much more likely… "****! That ball is in a horrible spot and now I probably won't have a chance to win this tournament."

Sure, I got what you said already. Obviously the rule has some leeway for interpretation. I initially interpreted the meaning incorrectly, and obviously Davis and his RO friend also interpreted it differently than you.

[iacas]

Quote

"And before I can even say a word, now Rhein goes, 'Well, I guess I can't play it now.'"

That, @Lihu, pretty much erases any doubt as to whether the player had already made up his mind to lift the ball for a drop.

Quote

 

The penalty was administered under Rule 18-2, which notes that one shot will be added if a caddie moves a ball while at rest without a player's authority. Decision 26-1/9 specifically addresses a caddie picking up a ball in a hazard, and Davis believed that it should have negated any potential penalty if there was "no doubt or it was reasonable to assume" the player would not have tried to hit his ball from the hazard.

But the decision also stipulates that any doubt must be resolved "against the player," meaning the penalty must stand in such instances. In Duncan's view, the comment Gibson made about not having an opportunity to evaluate the ball for a potential shot meant the penalty should stand.

 

Yup.

Just now, Lihu said:

Sure, I got what you said already. Obviously the rule has some leeway for interpretation. I initially interpreted the meaning incorrectly, and obviously Davis and his RO friend also interpreted it differently than you.

I don't think his friend is rules official. He's just a guy who "like, scored pretty high on a test" or something.

[Lihu]

Just now, iacas said:

That, @Lihu, pretty much erases any doubt as to whether the player had already made up his mind to lift the ball for a drop.

Agreed. Like I stated 4 posts earlier, I agreed with you on the ruling. You don't need to keep repeating this like I don't understand.

The main thing I'm wondering now is if Davis is fit to caddie for anyone else if he was lying in the video about being familiar with "his player"? Was he lying about knowing his player that well?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The main thing I'm wondering now is if Davis is fit to caddie for anyone else if he was lying in the video about being familiar with "his player"? Was he lying about knowing his player that well?

Not really the topic, is it? Plus, who are we to determine what he means by "familiar" or whatever? I'm sure he knew the guy at least a little.

The (on-topic) point is that "****!" is not enough to determine that the player is absolutely going to pick up and drop the ball, regardless of whether he's your identical twin sibling and you have ESP… let alone anything less.

[baw1]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's a ball in play and at rest moved (and not accidentally). When that stops being a penalty, then I don't know what game we're playing…

I just think its petty. There was no way to hit out of those rocks. He is still gonna pay for his errant shot with a penalty.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, baw1 said:

I just think its petty. There was no way to hit out of those rocks. He is still gonna pay for his errant shot with a penalty.

You don't know that at all.

The caddie moved a ball that was both at rest and in play.

[billchao]

53 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Another side of the story emerges:

The official disputes the idea that the player (Rhein Gibson) had gone back to the bag and selected another ball. As the official (Duncan) says, the player expresses some surprise that the caddie (Brandon Davis) had picked it up. If this is true, I'd say case closed, @Lihu. There was ample doubt as to the player's intention, if the official's account is correct.

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/official-disputes-caddies-version-gibson-penalty

 

Yea that closes the case for me.

49 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

but the player also owns how he works with his employee

He apologized for it, which is owning up to it in my book. Short of not throwing a headcover at his caddie in the first place, he did the right thing.

[iacas]

Put me in the "hell if I care if he threw a freaking putter headcover at the guy."

The guy just cost him $12k. And it's a PUTTER HEAD COVER. He didn't haul off and deck the guy, or Elin him with a 9-iron.

Sheesh.

I don't like poor behavior, but tossing a putter headcover at a dude who just stupidly cost you $12k? Doesn't even rank.

[NM Golf]

If someone's stupidity cost me $12 grand I might choke them out on the spot. Throwing a headcover in his direction would be the nicest thing I could do. I can't believe what I am hearing from people backing this guy. He's an IDIOT for touching his player's golf ball in the first place, thats not his job. He's quite obviously not a very knowledgable caddy, see the bold type in the quote below.

Quote

"I know when I see guys that I'd say are veteran caddies in a search like this, I can picture a few people and they've got the bag down and they let the player decide everything," Duncan said. "Touching a player's ball, or doing acts that that the player normally does in the foundation of golf, there's a lot of things that can actually get the player in trouble that the caddie does."

Then he goes social media to complain and gets fast and loose with the facts about what actually happened. He broke the rule! He picked up a ball in play without the player's authority, simple as that. Now the rules haters come out of the woodwork to support this dude? Come on people.

All I can say about this guy is somewhere there's a village missing an idiot. His days as a caddy are numbered, and for god sakes man, put on a shirt!

[David in FL]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

It's a ball in play and at rest moved (and not accidentally). When that stops being a penalty, then I don't know what game we're playing…

QFT.

People need to read this a few times until it sinks in.  The ball was in play.  Just because it was in a hazard, doesn't change it's status in any way.  I doubt that the caddie would have ever considered touching a ball resting in what he might have considered an unplayable lie in the tall grass or bushes, without clear direction to do so.  

He simply screwed up.  He knows it too...

[iacas]

That embed seems to have worked.

[Vinsk]

The official stated Gibson said ‘Well I guess I’m not hitting it from there now’ after caddie had picked the ball up. Pretty much clarifies caddie was dead wrong as there obviously was no confirmation his player wasn’t considering playing the ball.

[Martyn W]

I'm not sure if the player ever did see the lie, but if he thought he may have been able to get a club on it he could have replaced the ball playing four rather than take the drop (and penalty) playing five.