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JB Holmes - "Undue Delay"?


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4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Sorry, i should have clarified, I meant in reference to this specific slow play penalty.

I know. I just don't know why you are surprised by this. It's a Rule of Golf, and Noren or Palmer could have easily felt that he was in breach and shared that opinion.

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@TheZoid-Just curious-How long would you have let JB stand there doing nothing before you penalized him? Where is your subjective line drawn?

The rule is not vague - in that you are wrong right from the start.  The rule is specific in that it instructs the club or committee to set a standard based on their own needs.  It allows them to be v

Masocist But here it is http://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12232/11227747/pga-tour-players-slam-slow-play-after-six-hour-round-at-torrey-pines

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7 minutes ago, iacas said:

What do you mean? If I see a player do something that's a penalty, I am obligated to call him on it.

So, if you were the rules official that day, you'd have assessed the 2 shot penalty against Holmes?  Is Noren subject to a penalty for failing to call the penalty on Holmes?  If so, what is it? 

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3 minutes ago, tdiii said:

So, if you were the rules official that day, you'd have assessed the 2 shot penalty against Holmes?

I would have.

But, I wouldn't be a PGA Tour official, because they don't enforce the rules as written. They are also part of the "unwritten code" crap that leads to backstopping being allowed, this kind of pace of play crap, etc.

Remember, too, this 4:30:

  • Wasn't caused by some unique situation, like trying to decide whether he could take a stance amongst some bushes and advance the ball, etc.
  • Was AFTER Ryan Palmer took a minute or so to play his shot (Holmes could have been thinking during that time).
  • Was at the end of a round that had already taken nearly SIX HOURS.
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42 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Football has a play clock.  Basketball has a shot clock.  Baseball is in the process of implementing a pitch clock.  Why?....

I get it....we need money...need sponsors....we want to keep it interesting for new fans...grow the game...etc.....I honestly don't care.  I hated the "Tigermania" days....you couldn't get tickets to watch a tour event......if you did there were 9 zillion people there and it made it miserable.  I know everyone made more money.....but, I wasn't a fan of being a spectator to that type of golf.

I've always loved the tradition in golf...it being a classy polite game...it would be sad to see them have people follow players around with stop watches...it would invite an entirely new palate of controversies and problems...I just don't see it happening.  I'm the biggest golf fan in the world....and I don't watch golf on T.V.....I watch replays on you tube...that's about it.  I'd say its always been boring to watch.

So I totally agree with your position on it possibly having some financial effects on the money side of the game... I don't know how well golfers would tolerate it.

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1 minute ago, TheZoid said:

 

I've always loved the tradition in golf...it being a classy polite game...

 

In my view, there's nothing classy or polite about taking up everyone's time unnecessarily.  It is precisely the opposite. 

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

  • Was AFTER Ryan Palmer took a minute or so to play his shot (Holmes could have been thinking during that time).

This is what pisses me off more than almost anything else whilst watching golf on tv - these guys walk to their balls, usually arriving around the same time, yet the one farther away doesn't even consider what club he'll pull until after the one away has played his shot. They'll even do this on par 3s.

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Just now, tdiii said:

In my view, there's nothing classy or polite about taking up everyone's time unnecessarily.  It is precisely the opposite. 

....and in my view...being the prick that thinks he's entitled to never have to wait is "precisely the opposite"

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1 minute ago, colin007 said:

This is what pisses me off more than almost anything else whilst watching golf on tv - these guys walk to their balls, usually arriving around the same time, yet the one farther away doesn't even consider what club he'll pull until after the one away has played his shot. They'll even do this on par 3s.

It's like the person at the grocery store cash register who waits until the grand total to start looking through her purse for her check book.  Like she had no clue whatsoever that she would be expected to pay. 

Just now, TheZoid said:

....and in my view...being the prick that thinks he's entitled to never have to wait is "precisely the opposite"

Sure, but everyone expects to wait to hit their shot.  Just not for more than 4 minutes after one of the three has already hit. 

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Golf was never intended to be played at a snail's pace.  Whack the ball, find it, and whack it again.  TV golf gives too many duffers the opposite impression.

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17 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I honestly don't care.

That's clear.

17 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I've always loved the tradition in golf...it being a classy polite game...

JB's actions were not classy or polite.

17 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I'm the biggest golf fan in the world....and I don't watch golf on T.V.

Uhhhhhhhhhh… Watching a golfer stand around and twiddle his thumbs for four and a half minutes is not watching golf. Why do you watch the replays on YouTube? Maybe it's in large par because they cut that crap out!!!

11 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

....and in my view...being the prick that thinks he's entitled to never have to wait is "precisely the opposite"

No.

You're just wrong at this point. It's not being a prick to ask that your fellow competitors play within the Rules of Golf.

Never mind that the first section in the Rules of Golf is "Etiquette." From that section:

Quote

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

JB Holmes failed at that.

Quote

Pace of Play 

Play at Good Pace and Keep Up 

Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

JB Holmes failed to play at a good pace.

Quote

Be Ready to Play 

Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play. When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee. When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.

JB Holmes was not ready to play.

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50 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

@TheZoid-Just curious-How long would you have let JB stand there doing nothing before you penalized him?

Where is your subjective line drawn?

Are you HIM?

....or is the name an inside joke a newbie like me hasn't been made aware of yet?

 

To answer the question, I don't know...I would have needed to be there.  May have approached him at some point.  But, the rule isn't clear.  Seems like he would have needed to be warned, then placed on the clock.....whatever the procedure is.

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's clear.

JB's actions were not classy or polite.

JB Holmes failed at that.

JB Holmes failed to play at a good pace.

JB Holmes was not ready to play.

Not biased or anything? :-D

I feel like a 6 hour PGA Tour round and a 4:10 shot are ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure will act to justify players who already take 6 hours here to "take their time" even more so. I'm bracing for 10 hour rounds. . . :doh:

If it gets any longer than it is now, I think I'll go back to hiking and shooting.

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9 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Are you HIM?

....or is the name an inside joke a newbie like me hasn't been made aware of yet?

Read his signature. No, it's not.

9 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

To answer the question, I don't know...I would have needed to be there.  May have approached him at some point.  But, the rule isn't clear.  Seems like he would have needed to be warned, then placed on the clock.....whatever the procedure is.

The rule is clear.

You keep saying that, but it's clear.

It's subjective, but clear.

And no, you don't have to be warned, then placed on the clock. That's the PGA Tour's CYA process. He breached a Rule of Golf. You don't need a warning for that.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not biased or anything? :-D

No. I don't know what you're saying there. Bias has no play here.

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

If it gets any longer than it is now, I think I'll go back to hiking and shooting.

I've hiked two miles into the woods, waited for the sun to rise, shot a whitetail, dressed it, dragged it out, and gotten home in less than it took JB Holmes to play 18 holes of golf on Sunday.

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14 minutes ago, iacas said:

No.

You're just wrong at this point. It's not being a prick to ask that your fellow competitors play within the Rules of Golf.

Never mind that the first section in the Rules of Golf is "Etiquette." From that section:

Last point I'll make on this topic, because its what the discussion is really about.  The rule is subjective...the "committee" had no specific time laid out, and if they had...it would have been their option to enforce it.  J.B. Holmes and the people that make up the PGA Tour are the best players on the planet....and that's just the pace they play.

 

Your point on the etiquette...I suppose this is a fair point...apparently breaches of etiquette can result in disqualification.  Start DQ'ing every player not ready to hit when its their turn and things would get weird out there in a hurry.

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Read his signature. No, it's not.

.....blah....threw that curve ball right by me

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1 minute ago, TheZoid said:

Last point I'll make on this topic, because its what the discussion is really about.  The rule is subjective...the "committee" had no specific time laid out, and if they had...it would have been their option to enforce it.  J.B. Holmes and the people that make up the PGA Tour are the best players on the planet....and that's just the pace they play.

 

Your point on the etiquette...I suppose this is a fair point...apparently breaches of etiquette can result in disqualification.  Start DQ'ing every player not ready to hit when its their turn and things would get weird out there in a hurry.

 

Just a question for you:  What would you consider to be undue delay?  Same scenario - it's your turn to play, you've already stood around watching and doing nothing while your fellow competitor took a minute to play his shot (I'm not saying that you do this yourself, just a hypothetical).  What is an allowable time now for you to make your stroke?

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16 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Last point I'll make on this topic, because its what the discussion is really about.  The rule is subjective...the "committee" had no specific time laid out

The almost universally accepted standard is 0:30 to 1:00.

16 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

it would have been their option to enforce it.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that JB could have been penalized as things were on Sunday. He could have been. If the committee felt that he was unduly delaying play, bam, they could have penalized him.

That they were too chicken to doesn't really support your point; it points to them being chickens.

16 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

and that's just the pace they play.

No, it isn't.

16 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Your point on the etiquette...I suppose this is a fair point...apparently breaches of etiquette can result in disqualification.  Start DQ'ing every player not ready to hit when its their turn and things would get weird out there in a hurry.

You missed the point.

11 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Just a question for you:  What would you consider to be undue delay?

He's already dodged the question once, Rick.

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6 hours ago, iacas said:

I've hiked two miles into the woods, waited for the sun to rise, shot a whitetail, dressed it, dragged it out, and gotten home in less than it took JB Holmes to play 18 holes of golf on Sunday.

Exactly! :-D

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13 hours ago, TheZoid said:

I get it....we need money...need sponsors....we want to keep it interesting for new fans...grow the game...etc.....I honestly don't care.  I hated the "Tigermania" days....you couldn't get tickets to watch a tour event......if you did there were 9 zillion people there and it made it miserable.  I know everyone made more money.....but, I wasn't a fan of being a spectator to that type of golf.

I've always loved the tradition in golf...it being a classy polite game...it would be sad to see them have people follow players around with stop watches...it would invite an entirely new palate of controversies and problems...I just don't see it happening.  I'm the biggest golf fan in the world....and I don't watch golf on T.V.....I watch replays on you tube...that's about it.  I'd say its always been boring to watch.

So I totally agree with your position on it possibly having some financial effects on the money side of the game... I don't know how well golfers would tolerate it.

If you love the traditions in golf, as I do, then you should note that they are playing a lot slower today that in years past. Typical pro rounds were 4 hours or less back then. Now 6+ happens a lot. Sure there is more money involved, but the players have decided it is OK when it should not be.

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