12 HS players DQ’d from Tournament

[Vinsk]

53 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

In this case it´s 100% players fault, and it´s really bizzare that 4 groups made the same stupid mistake. 

Last year here in Argentina I played an Official Am Tournament.
 First bullet point on the rules where to play from blue tees. I have the second tee-time for the day.
The first group teed-up from the white tee (shorter ones), because the starter told them to play from that spot, they did and walk away. A rules official saw this on the distance and ask advice from the commite of the tournament.
FinallyThe first group was asked to re-tee on the first hole from the blue tees, without penalty or DQ because the mistake was made by the starter.

Starter: Play from the white tees.

Player: Our rules posting says Blue Tees.

Done.

[rehmwa]

I wonder how many would have made the same error if the officials didn't help out all the rest of the kids.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, krupa said:

I'm surprised 4 groups made the same mistake.

The second group probably saw the first hitting from there and didn’t think. Repeat twice more.

[krupa]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

The second group probably saw the first hitting from there and didn’t think. Repeat twice more.

I guess that sums it up.

[TN94z]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Well this was a state tournament and not just a local HS vs HS match.....

I've played in a state am qualifier before where all tees were still on the course.

I think the better thing to do would be to place a specific marker on the correct tee box. It's like the Sned's tour we play in, all the markers are out at every course we go to, but Sneds has their own markers on the correct tee boxes. Easily pulled up, easily identifiable, and doesn't cause problems with public play.

I am of the mindset that a high school player being told to play the blue markers, should know to look for the blue markers. If you don't see the blue marker, ask a tournament worker.

Edited May 16, 2018 by TN94z

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, TN94z said:

I've played in a state am qualifier before where all tees were still on the course.

I think the better thing to do would be to place a specific marker on the correct tee box. It's like the Sned's tour we play in, all the markers are out at every course we go to, but Sneds has their own markers on the correct tee boxes. Easily pulled up, easily identifiable, and doesn't cause problems with public play.

I am of the mindset that a high school player being told to play the blue markers, should know to look for the blue markers. If you don't see the blue marker, ask a tournament worker.

Yeah it was definitely the fault of the players. I’m just surprised this type of error happened. I mean...blue tees, not a complicated tournament rule. The tournament I watched at my course took the whole day up and they had booths set up, merchandise tents...so only the tees they were playing were out there. I can see that not being the norm though.

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I'm not. HS golf tournaments are probably the slowest golf played in the country. The first group probably made the mistake and then told the second group about it as the second group walked up to the tee box, and it continued from there.

I don't think that's true. I've been to a couple of HS golf tournaments in Colorado, and I never remember other tee markers being left out. I know that these tournaments generally play a mixture of tees (for girls, the front and second to front tees; for boys, the back and second to back tees), so it's generally much easier to only have one set of tees out. CGA events only put out one set of tees markers as well, and the same rules people do both events generally.

It probably depends on the course and the person/people running the event. But at the state tournament, which is a huge undertaking, get the other tees off the course.

None of this excuses the players, who should know better (and @iacas is absolutely correct, the yardages on the scorecards are meaningless). But committees have a responsibility to set up the course properly, and crap like this happens way too often in high school tournaments. Illegal drop zones, mismarked hazards, etc.

I worked as a starter at Foothills for 5 years and watched many HS tournaments there.  They never removed the other tees.

[DeadMan]

I read through the comments on this at the local paper's website (http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2018/05/state_golf_fireworks_3a2a1a_fe.html), and there were two interesting ones:

• A commenter who claims to be coach of one of the team says there was a marshall the kids asked, and he directed them to tee off by the 172 yardage plate.
• Another commenter says the red tee boxes were out because the girls' tournament was at the same course on the same day.

Blame is falling more and more on the kids, to me. They should know that marshalls are useless and should have called a rules official instead. And why they thought teeing off from just the red marker would be okay is baffling to me, knowing that there's both a boys' and girls' tournament at this course.

Edited May 16, 2018 by DeadMan

[David in FL]

 Each of them just learned an important life lesson about reading and following directions.

Ultimately, it may very well benefit them all in the long run. 

[Nwehrman]

Reading through the comments on one of the news pages, it looks like the blue markers were in the wrong spot. Everyone played a practice round the day before and on that particular hole they hit from 172, where the kids that got DQ'd hit from in the tournament. It goes on to say they hit from where they did because they were up on an elevated tee box and couldn't see any blue markers, the scorecard said the distance was 172, and the marshall told them that is where they should hit. So as it turns out, the ones that got DQ'd actually hit from the right spot, but since someone didn't make sure the markers were in the right spot they get screwed.

 

Everyone in here is quick to blame the kids without knowing any of this. The fact is the people in charge screwed up and instead of owning up to it they took the cowards way out and punished the kids. 

[Rulesman]

"It is the first bullet point on the rules sheet," Weber said.

[Shorty]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:12 AM, Patch said:

Was there a coach around some where? Agree, the youngsters are responsible. 

You don't need a coach to point out the colour of a tee marker on every tee.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

Reading through the comments on one of the news pages, it looks like the blue markers were in the wrong spot. Everyone played a practice round the day before and on that particular hole they hit from 172, where the kids that got DQ'd hit from in the tournament. It goes on to say they hit from where they did because they were up on an elevated tee box and couldn't see any blue markers, the scorecard said the distance was 172, and the marshall told them that is where they should hit. So as it turns out, the ones that got DQ'd actually hit from the right spot, but since someone didn't make sure the markers were in the right spot they get screwed.

Everyone in here is quick to blame the kids without knowing any of this. The fact is the people in charge screwed up and instead of owning up to it they took the cowards way out and punished the kids. 

None of that changes my opinion.

If I were to arrive on that tee, I would not hit from the white tee markers or whatever color those were, particularly if there were teeing grounds further back.

I believe this is the hole in question:

The tee box measuring about 172 is nearly the forward-most tee, right of the curve in the road. The back back tee measures 240 yards. The middle tee measures about 210.

The middle tee is higher - at 237 feet of elevation - than the forward tee at 231 feet of elevation. I certainly would not let that have stopped me from checking. Particularly if this was actually the 13th hole I'd played that day, or really even the fourth (if they went off #10). You play the blue tees. You don't assume the markers are in the wrong spot.

Really, I'd have called an official out right away, because maybe someone moved the markers, or something else was wrong.

[rehmwa]

If there was a real level field here, then if those groups were DQ'd for a mistake solely on their own actions, then the officials should have been completely silent for the rest of the field (unless the question was directly initiated by the kids) and also let the rest of them fail on not on their own merit.  Same scenario for everyone, not 'on your own' for one vs 'help by the official' for the rest.

Edited May 17, 2018 by rehmwa

[Nwehrman]

@iacas They didn’t assume the markers were in the wrong spot. The markers WERE in the wrong spot. They hit from where they were supposed to hit as per the official tournament scorecard. 

If you want to lay some blame on the kids that’s fine but the fact is someone in charge messed up. Whether it was not moving the tees or not having the right distance on the scorecard, and they handled it terribly by punishing the kids. 

[krupa]

The 4 groups that were DQ'd were the first four groups that played the hole. If they had just moved the tee markers up, everyone else would have played the same course. 

I know nothing about tournament golf.  Are there technical reasons for not simply moving up the markers? 

[DeadMan]

18 minutes ago, krupa said:

The 4 groups that were DQ'd were the first four groups that played the hole. If they had just moved the tee markers up, everyone else would have played the same course. 

I know nothing about tournament golf.  Are there technical reasons for not simply moving up the markers? 

Yeah, it would get you disqualified. Look at Decision 11-2/2(b):

Rule 11-2 states that before a player plays his first stroke with any ball from the teeing ground, the tee-markers are deemed to be fixed. Thereafter, Decision 11-2/1 clarifies that they are obstructions and if movable, may be moved (see Definition of "Obstruction").

In view of the fact that tee-markers are initially fixed, and when moved can have a significant effect on the competition, the following are examples of the appropriate ruling in various circumstances. In all cases a moved tee-marker should be replaced. In some cases, the replacement of the tee-marker may affect the penalty to the player.

(a) A player moves a tee-marker before playing his first stroke with any ball from the teeing ground because the tee-marker interferes with the lie of the ball, his stance or his area of intended swing - loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play for breach of Rule 13-2.

(b) A player moves a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground because, in his view, the tee-markers are too close together, too far back, aimed in the wrong direction, or some similar reason - disqualification under Rule 33-7, unless the tee-marker is replaced before the player or any other player plays from the teeing ground, in which case the penalty is modified to loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play.

(c) A player moves a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground as a result of falling over the marker - no penalty and the tee-marker should be replaced.

(d) A player moves a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground as a result of intentionally kicking it or striking it with a club - no penalty and the tee-marker should be replaced.

(e) A player lifts a tee-marker before or after playing a stroke from the teeing ground for no apparent reason and without authority under the Rules - no penalty and the tee-marker should be replaced.

[Fourputt]

52 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

@iacas They didn’t assume the markers were in the wrong spot. The markers WERE in the wrong spot. They hit from where they were supposed to hit as per the official tournament scorecard. 

If you want to lay some blame on the kids that’s fine but the fact is someone in charge messed up. Whether it was not moving the tees or not having the right distance on the scorecard, and they handled it terribly by punishing the kids. 

Why does anyone assume that the tees were supposed to be in the same place for practice and tournament rounds?  When the rules say "Blue Tees", you play the blue tees wherever you find them.  Just because there was bitching in the paper doesn't make what those kids did correct.  They made an assumption, incorrectly as it turned out, and they paid the penalty for it.  End of story.  It's a shame that the marshal was as clueless as the kids were.

My home course resets the tees and recuts the holes every day.  If I play a practice round for the club championship on Wednesday, that has absolutely no bearing on where the tees and holes will be on Saturday.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Fourputt