Toe up on the backswing

[Blackjack Don]

I did a search on "toe up" and got zero results. Please give a link to further discussion.

Recently, that swing key I needed unlocked my swing. A You Tube video pro said to keep my wrist straight on the takeaway, keeping my left wrist as straight as I can through the hitting zone. My Achilles heel has always been a weak left wrist. This produced immediate and repeatable results. Needless to say, I was thrilled.

But...this is directly challenging the more widely-accepted (taught?) "toe up at hip level, toe up on the followthrough." When I do this, I leave the face open and push to the right. Keeping the face shut, my dispersion pattern tightens, a lot. It could be just me. However, I'm currently looking for a pro for some coaching. I think this is a big deal, a dealbreaker in fact. Is it insulting to ask about this? Overthinking it? lol

What is the conventional wisdom? Toe up or closed face? Thanks.

Don

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What is the conventional wisdom? Toe up or closed face? Thanks.

Don

What are you asking about exactly?

Toe up in the backswing when the club is parallel to the ground, or toe-up in the follow through?

The answer is probably going to be, it depends on the golfer and what other stuff he does. There is no swing key mandating toe up at a certain position in the golf swing. In the end, the club rotates from the address position about 90 degrees at the top of the backswing. How it does this, and the rate it does this, is dependent on the golfer.

 

[billchao]

14 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I did a search on "toe up" and got zero results. Please give a link to further discussion.

Toe up at A6 and A8 are open to and closed to the plane, respectively.

It doesn't necessarily mean you're guaranteed to return the clubface "square" if you're square or closed at A6. I still push the ball with a clubface like /. It depends on other things happening in your swing, like @saevel25 mentioned.

[Patch]

I have always used the toe up, half way up, scenario with extended arms, with my one piece take away. Notice I didn't say "straight" up. It's almost straight up, but not 100%. 

The toe up, half way up, after ball impact, into the follow through, is another good thing. 

There's that toe up, to toe  up drill  folks use that is viable. The problem I think with that drill is it's easy to get too "wristy", and the golfer starts "flipping" the club. The golfer sees the toe up, to toe up, but forgets that their wrists might be doing the wrong thing. 

I tend to believe that if the golfer does the one piece take away correctly, that takes care of the toe up, half way up issue. Better yet, it helps to get the golfer in a more correct position at the top of their swing. 

[Blackjack Don]

Upon further investigation, I seem to have found a major controversy among professionals and enthusiasts. Toe up toe up, or closed clubface at takeaway?

20 minutes ago, Patch said:

I tend to believe that if the golfer does the one piece take away correctly, that takes care of the toe up, half way up issue. Better yet, it helps to get the golfer in a more correct position at the top of their swing. 

A tip I haven't worked with yet is the butt aiming at the left hip. Keeping the clubhead outside of the path the hands are taking. 

The position at the top no greater than parallel to the target line? Left wrist straight at the top? 

If I do toe up, I tend to cup my left wrist at the top, and I rarely get the left wrist back flat at impact. I find I cannot successfully roll the wrist at the top. I struggle with laying the club back. Neither of those, I have no feel for them. I am tending to point the club to the right of the target line at the top, which I think is the result of cupping at the top. Does this make sense, Patch?

[Blackjack Don]

49 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

A tip I haven't worked with yet is the butt aiming at the left hip.

Then I find a David Ledbetter video where he has the butt tip pointing toward the right hip, with a cupped wrist at the top. Oy. Slightly closed, not toe up or face up at the top. He doesn't even mention face at the top. Good grief. I give up

[Patch]

29 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Upon further investigation, I seem to have found a major controversy among professionals and enthusiasts. Toe up toe up, or closed clubface at takeaway?

A tip I haven't worked with yet is the butt aiming at the left hip. Keeping the clubhead outside of the path the hands are taking. 

The position at the top no greater than parallel to the target line? Left wrist straight at the top? 

If I do toe up, I tend to cup my left wrist at the top, and I rarely get the left wrist back flat at impact. I find I cannot successfully roll the wrist at the top. I struggle with laying the club back. Neither of those, I have no feel for them. I am tending to point the club to the right of the target line at the top, which I think is the result of cupping at the top. Does this make sense, Patch?

I am not a professional, nor do I know all the specifics of the golf swing. I just know what works for me. 

My left wrist is mostly straight at the top. My right wrist is bent backwards to some degree. I have heard this discribed as the " tray position" like carrying a tray of food over your shoulder. 

My club does not too much left, or too much right when it is horizontal at the top. It is what it is. 

I was told in the past by my swing guru (rip) that what ever the club face position at the top, will be what it is at ball impact. If it is closed at the top, it will be closed to some degree at ball impact. Same if it is open at the top, it will be open to some degree at ball impact. What he did with me was to put preset me in a half open , half closed club face position at the top. Then bring my swing down from there to impact position and stop. My club face would be slightly open at the address position. Not square like I was trying to do. A slightly open club face was my new address position.

[Buckeyebowman]

"Toe up" does not mean that the sole of the club is vertical to the ground. It just means that the toe of the club is higher than the heel. This can be different for every golfer out there.

And,if you're leaving shots to the right, that indicates that you are not squaring the clubface on the downswing, no matter what you're doing on the backswing.

Sounds like you're over thinking this. I hit the ball much better when I just line up and give it a good swat! The results will differ, but that's entirely on me, and it won't be because I have a bunch of swing thoughts clanging around in my head!

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

"Toe up" does not mean that the sole of the club is vertical to the ground. It just means that the toe of the club is higher than the heel. This can be different for every golfer out there.

That is a tad important to know. 

2 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And,if you're leaving shots to the right, that indicates that you are not squaring the clubface on the downswing, no matter what you're doing on the backswing.

Not necessarily true. The backswing influences the downswing a lot. Also, most people slice with the club face closed to the target line at impact. If the square it up they would hit big pulls all day. 

[iacas]

11 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

I did a search on "toe up" and got zero results. Please give a link to further discussion.

Neither of those words are four letters long. The site doesn't index words that are only three letters long.

11 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What is the conventional wisdom? Toe up or closed face? Thanks.

There is none. PGA Tour players all do it differently. Some are toe up. Some are "square to the plane."

9 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Upon further investigation, I seem to have found a major controversy among professionals and enthusiasts. Toe up toe up, or closed clubface at takeaway?

I don't think I'd call it "controversial." It's not a commonality.

9 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

The position at the top no greater than parallel to the target line? Left wrist straight at the top?

Not a commonality.

[Blackjack Don]

6 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Sounds like you're over thinking this. I hit the ball much better when I just line up and give it a good swat!

Yeah, I've been accused of overthinking, a lot. Sometimes when I hit my best shots it feels like I'm flailing at the ball, almost loosey-goosey. When I overgrip or over-hit, I get poor results.

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think I'd call it "controversial." It's not a commonality.

Okay, I don't know what commonality means. Are you saying neither matters?

A question, please. Does anything make any difference on the backswing, except for swing plane? Is it all about the downswing? No matter what a player does, he or she has to have the club in the proper position to make a hit, yes? This is why some players with the worst swings still manage to get the club on the ball in the right place?

Oh, one more, if you please. Years ago in the age of wood, it was said the "sweet spot" was the size of a dime. Even with tech advancements, isn't it still pretty much the same size?

Thanks

 

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Okay, I don't know what commonality means. Are you saying neither matters?

Well essentially yes. A commonality would be the 5 Keys. The 5 Keys are a commonality among good ball strikers. The positions (actions) you described are not. Some may do them, others not.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Vinsk

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, I don't know what commonality means. Are you saying neither matters?

Commonality meaning, what do all the great golfers have in common. By great, PGA Tour players.

Also, there is no real consensus on what is open versus closed. If I had to guess, it probably depends on the turn rates of the body relative to the open/closure rate of the clubhead.

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Does anything make any difference on the backswing, except for swing plane? Is it all about the downswing?

No, things in the backswing can influence the downswing. If a golfer is inefficient on the backswing they have to make compensations somewhere.

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

No matter what a player does, he or she has to have the club in the proper position to make a hit, yes?

Again no, but doing things well in the backswing helps a golfer a lot in the downswing.

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

This is why some players with the worst swings still manage to get the club on the ball in the right place?

Define worst swing? As long as they do 5 things exceptionally well they will be an exceptional golfer. I wouldn't say they have terrible swings. The swings might look strange.

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Years ago in the age of wood, it was said the "sweet spot" was the size of a dime. Even with tech advancements, isn't it still pretty much the same size?

The true sweet spot is actually just a single point. When the center of mass of the club lines up with the swing path to hit the ball. This is why the sweet spot for old blade irons use to be closer to the hosel, because there was more mass in the heel of the club.

If you want to talk about ball speed retention on off-center hits, then yes that sweet spot has grown. If you take a game improvement iron, you can hit the ball 1/4 an inch to the toe and the ball can still go pin high. If you did that with older clubs the ball would come up way short.

[Blackjack Don]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Well essentially yes. A commonality would be the 5 Keys. The 5 Keys are a commonality among good ball strikers. The positions (actions) you described are not. Some may do them, others not.

Thank you. My bad. It's been awhile since I went back and looked at the 5 Keys. Duh. Okay, I get it now, and will go back to the original source. I might have been better off sticking to one program than trying to pack them all in at the same time. One of my flaws is being in too much of a hurry. 

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

If you take a game improvement iron, you can hit the ball 1/4 an inch to the toe and the ball can still go pin high. If you did that with older clubs the ball would come up way short.

And yet, I believe, scores haven't gone down. Why is that? Everybody has an answer, and nobody is right. Turns out to be a harder game than I thought.

For some reason, I get a much different result, consistently, when I take away the club with the club face mirroring my spine angle, than rolling it open toe up, which consistently sends the ball to the right in a push. I am not sure where I'm deviating and how the closed club face is correcting the flaw. Esp since I can't find a swing coach who is open-minded to having a very argumentative student.

😁

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Neither of those words are four letters long. The site doesn't index words that are only three letters long.

No worries. I don't know if you guys get many compliments on the forum software, but it's one of the best I've ever used in nearly thirty years of online experience, at a layperson's level. There is an awful lot to like about it, and if you had anything to do with the development, I hope you got a piece of the action, and are now teaching as a labor of love. We used to joke about all search engines suck, when mostly it was operator error--pilot flew into mountain.

Thanks for your patience. I know I am a troublemaker, but I have only the best intentions. I only look like a troll, but I'm not really. I'm a simple skeptic.

Best wishes.

[Vinsk]

15 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

And yet, I believe, scores haven't gone down. Why is that? Everybody has an answer, and nobody is right

I believe they have some? Are you referring to pros or recreational golfers? Ball striking is better I believe but hey, golf is hard. I’m sure my overall ball striking would’ve  been better if my first days of golf were done with an SGI iron rather than Northwestern Thunderbird blades.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

And yet, I believe, scores haven't gone down. Why is that? Everybody has an answer, and nobody is right. Turns out to be a harder game than I thought.

The game is hard. And bullshit that "nobody is right."

[Blackjack Don]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

The game is hard. And bullshit that "nobody is right."

I totally stand corrected. That's actually a pretty good drop! Due to technology improvement?

You betcha it's bullshit, because everyone I talk to about golf is right! Every single person believes they are absolutely right about, well, you name it. lol

Yesterday the head pro at the course I play at said he's been teaching the same thing for 23 years. I replied I didn't want to take lessons from someone who hasn't learned anything. He didn't get the joke. Later he said Trackman is a waste of time, as is hitting indoors. You have to see the flight of the ball. Yes, everybody thinks they are right, and nobody is right. I stand my it. And it's bullshit. The point isn't to be right, the point is to get it right.

He said he would give me three free lessons and if I got better, I'd take three more and pay for six. I counter-offered. If he wasn't a better teacher after the three lessons, then we'd shake hands and be friends. But if he was a better teacher, then he'd give me three more free. He deferred.

A good teacher is one who learns more than the student. In my experience, most teachers agree, but few practice it. But he teaches toe up to toe up, so I don't know how well the lessons would have gone.

🙂

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

You betcha it's bullshit, because everyone I talk to about golf is right! Every single person believes they are absolutely right about, well, you name it. lol

No, that's not what I mean.

There are ways to determine what's "right." Rarely is "everyone should do this" right. In some order, you can look at:

• physics
• geometry
• human anatomy
• what the game's best players actually do
• etc.

To figure out what is "right." It's not what people say, because duh.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Yes, everybody thinks they are right, and nobody is right. I stand my it. And it's bullshit. The point isn't to be right, the point is to get it right.

You are wrong for "standing by it." You'd be a horrible judge, because you'd never actually uncover the truth with that attitude. You don't just listen to people who say "I am right." You actually verify and create an understanding of the facts. Then you determine who is actually right.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

A good teacher is one who learns more than the student.

I don't agree, if the context is "in that lesson" or whatever. Over my career I've obviously learned a ton more than any student of mine… but in that lesson? Sometimes I learn nothing new about the golf swing. I might learn that they have two children, that their left knee hurts, that they really have to exaggerate it as much as they can and it's still almost not enough… etc. But if that's what you mean by "learn" then that's almost a pointless phrase, because learning that they have two kids won't help their golf game at all, or help me teach others how to play better golf.