Picking Up Wrong Ball

[Hoosier 1]

A player gets to a ball that is in the GUR (Newly planted sod that many player play from) and can't decide if he wants to drop or not.  After a minute he decides he wants a free drop and picks the ball up and drops to nearest point.  He gets ready to hit when another player ask if he is hitting the correct ball.  At that point he realizes he has made a determination on another players ball and lie.  He plays his ball while the other player drops the ball moved.  Is there a penalty by the guy making a determination and moving the ball?

[Rulesman]

Not unless they were playing a match against each other. In which case he would get a 1 stroke penalty.

See rules 18-4 and 18-3

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Rulesman

[saevel25]

 

Quote

18-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

a. During Search

If, during search for a player's ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

b. Other Than During Search

If, other than during search for a player's ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

(Playing a wrong ball - see Rule 15-3)

(Ball moved in measuring - see Rule 18-6)

Click here for more information about the Local Rule for Accidental Movement of a Ball on a Putting Green (effective 1/1/2017)

18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie or Equipment in Stroke Play

If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipment, moves the player's ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

 

I wonder why they make the distinction between match play and stroke play?

Either way, as long as it wasn't stroke play, then there is no penalty as long as you replaced the ball.

 

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I wonder why they make the distinction between match play and stroke play?  

Because 18-3b is different than 18-4.

The guy purposefully picked up the ball.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because 18-3b is different than 18-4.

The guy purposefully picked up the ball.

Does 18-3b apply in equity then in stroke play?

If so, then if a person thinks a ball is theirs, and goes ahead with the OP's description of events, they suffer a penalty. Because, this wasn't in the act of searching for a ball.

[Rulesman]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

 

Either way, as long as it wasn't stroke play, then there is no penalty as long as you replaced the ball.

 

 

Are you sure? There is no mention of a search.

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I wonder why they make the distinction between match play and stroke play?

Either way, as long as it wasn't stroke play, then there is no penalty as long as you replaced the ball.

In stroke play, a fellow competitor fits the definition of an outside agency.  If there was a penalty to be assessed to either player, it would be outlined in 18-4.

Quote

In stroke play, an outside agency is any agency other than the competitor's side, any caddie of the side, any ball played by the side at the hole being played or any equipment of the side.

In match play, there IS a penalty for moving your opponents ball, as @Rulesman pointed out.  18-3b is specifically for match play.  

Edited August 9, 2018 by DaveP043

[Rulesman]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

Does 18-3b apply in equity then in stroke play?

 

No. 18-4 applies in strokeplay

[Hoosier 1]

It was stroke play, so I assume it was a 1-stroke penalty.  There was no searching, he just assumed it was his ball.

[saevel25]

Ok, I still don't get why there is a distinction between stroke play and match play here.

18-4 is vague enough that it should cover if the ball was purposely moved or not. Other rules specify accidently touched, or touched when searching for a ball, or purposely touched. Not stating the intent implies it covers all scenarios, including malicious ones. I can easily think of a situation were an opponent moves the players ball. Why not just make the wording the same?

Is any malicious intent in stroke play fall under Rule 1, disqualification by the committee?

[DeadMan]

21 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Ok, I still don't get why there is a distinction between stroke play and match play here.

18-4 is vague enough that it should cover if the ball was purposely moved or not. Other rules specify accidently touched, or touched when searching for a ball, or purposely touched. Not stating the intent implies it covers all scenarios, including malicious ones. I can easily think of a situation were an opponent moves the players ball. Why not just make the wording the same? 

Is any malicious intent in stroke play fall under Rule 1, disqualification by the committee? 

First, be careful with opponent vs. fellow-competitor. Opponent = person you're playing against in match play; fellow-competitor = someone you're playing with in stroke play.

Rule 1-2 would probably apply if a player in stroke play moved another player's ball with the intent to place that player at a disadvantage. In general, though, in stroke play, this is no harm, no foul type situation.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

First, be careful with opponent vs. fellow-competitor. Opponent = person you're playing against in match play; fellow-competitor = someone you're playing with in stroke play.

Rule 1-2 would probably apply if a player in stroke play moved another player's ball with the intent to place that player at a disadvantage. In general, though, in stroke play, this is no harm, no foul type situation.

Rule 1-2, is influencing the movement of the ball. Not causing the ball to move that has come to rest.

[DeadMan]

15 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Rule 1-2, is influencing the movement of the ball. Not causing the ball to move that has come to rest. 

Boy, I don't know what happened to my reading skills there.

That said, I think you deal with malicious intent in stroke play by disqualification under 33-7. This would be really rare, though. For example, finding a ball you know is another player's but then throwing it into weeds so he can't find it.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Are you sure? There is no mention of a search.

Does "search" have a specific meaning in golf?

Pretty much a search is any time between hitting your ball and finding it - whether it's obvious or not....whether others are helping you or not.

[Rulesman]

9 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Does "search" have a specific meaning in golf?

Pretty much a search is any time between hitting your ball and finding it - whether it's obvious or not....whether others are helping you or not.

It means looking for the ball in the area you expect it to be.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Ok, I still don't get why there is a distinction between stroke play and match play here.

18-4 is vague enough that it should cover if the ball was purposely moved or not. Other rules specify accidently touched, or touched when searching for a ball, or purposely touched. Not stating the intent implies it covers all scenarios, including malicious ones. I can easily think of a situation were an opponent moves the players ball. Why not just make the wording the same?

Is any malicious intent in stroke play fall under Rule 1, disqualification by the committee?

Here's the way I look at it.  Perhaps I'm not entirely correct, but this is the way it makes sense to me.

In match play, there are 3 categories of human beings.  There's your side, potentially including a partner and caddies.  If your side moves your own ball, you get a penalty, and you have to put it back.  There's your opponent, potentially including partners and their caddies.  If your opponent moves your ball, in most cases THEY get a penalty, and you replace the ball.  Then there's everybody else in the world.  If they move your ball, you put it back, and nobody gets a penalty.

In stroke play, there are only two categories of humans.  There's your side, again potentially including your partner and your caddie(s). If your side moves your ball, you get a penalty, and you have to put it back.  Then there's everyone else in the world, including your fellow-competitors.  Your fellow-competitors have no more standing in relation to your ball than a spectator, a rules official, the guy mowing the greens, or a hot dog vendor.  If any of them move your ball, you put it back, no penalty to anyone.  Obvious the exception is a fellow-competitor maliciously moving your ball to intentionally put you at a disadvantage, as @DeadMan mentioned.

[Missouri Swede]

24 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Does "search" have a specific meaning in golf?

Pretty much a search is any time between hitting your ball and finding it - whether it's obvious or not....whether others are helping you or not.

No, remember that there is a time limit. As per @Rulesman, that time doesn’t start when you make your stroke—you’re allowed time to get there. Off topic for this thread, but still...

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

No, remember that there is a time limit. As per @Rulesman, that time doesn’t start when you make your stroke—you’re allowed time to get there. Off topic for this thread, but still...

the "from the stroke" part, of course I was being wry about it, but you need to understand what i mean then.

this part makes sense of course, as does rulesman's reply, both are a bit 'no kidding'.  but I mean is it defined in the rules in writing - is there a paragraph?  I'll go do a rules keyword search.  Just seeing if anyone would reply directly.  Something along "a search begins when player is in the area, the location isn't immediately apparent and he announces he's searching for his ball"  or the like.

If not, Hoosier noted "there was no searching, he just assumed it was his ball" - well, the time he was in the area is still a search.....he failed.....(it was in the area he thought the ball was in, and he looked for his ball, and he identified a candiate) - I would say a search was conducted in general terms, perhaps not so if 'search' is explicitly defined though.

that's enough of that if people consider it off topic - I didn't

thanks to both of you for the answers though

Edited August 9, 2018 by rehmwa