Expected score on par 3 courses?

[Killa]

I do pretty much all of my practice at a par3 course nearby that has very good practice facilities, except fake greens. 

I don’t however play it very often. 

But today I decided to play a 9 hole round with two balls. The course plays 770 yards. There is one hole that plays 148 yards to the front of the green, two holes that play about 110-115, two that play 90 and 4 that are between 50-65. All the greens except the long ones are about half the size. The short ones are about 15 yards wide but only 5 -6 deep.

There are some bunkers and one water hazard that comes into play on one of the 110 yard holes. 

So my best score over 9 holes is -1, but that is more the exception than the norm. 

So over 18 holes (or 2 balls over 9) the par is 54. I wanted to score 63 or under.  My thought process behind that score is that of a 3,5 score average from 85 yards in. 

I didn’t score 63 though. I had 70. So that ended up with a 3.89 scoring average. 

Next time out I will play with 2 balls again, but will also keep score of GIR (pretty much all of the balls were nGIR or at least 15 were, depending on the exact distance you measure nGIR), and putts. That should give me more insight even if the greens are not real grass. 

Are my expectations too high or too low?

[Slim_Pivot]

27

54 for 18

Lol. But I would stick to the handicap system for what it should be....then Adjust

[Shindig]

From your index, I am guessing your scoring average (on a regulation course) is between bogey and double bogey, and closer to the latter.  This makes your score under bogey average on a course very good.  And I bet your typical par-3 hole goes like this:  tee shot, chip or pitch onto the green, putt near the hole, tap in.  Sometimes you chip it close or make the putt (or both).  Sometimes you hit the green and save the chip.  And occasionally things go the other direction.

It should also indicate something to you:  when you get within 150 yards of the hole, and in good position, you tend to be down within four shots.  That's great news.

So let's use this knowledge to see if it can help your game.

How are you, on a regulation course, at getting to within that 150 yard range?  Because if you can get to within 150 yards (and not in trouble) on most of your par-5s in two shots, that's a lot of strokes that people in your ability range tend to lose that you can save.  If you aren't regularly getting to that, you don't necessarily need to check a Game Golf to know:  work on your full swing (in fact, do that anyway).

Similarly, it should give you some confidence on regulation par-3s:  find the area you can most likely get your tee shot to safely.  That might be part of the green, that might be the collection area short of the green, it might be off to one side of the green.  But get it there.  See the decision maps section of LSW and plan out these eight holes at your home course.

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, Killa said:

I do pretty much all of my practice at a par3 course nearby that has very good practice facilities, except fake greens. 

I don’t however play it very often. 

But today I decided to play a 9 hole round with two balls. The course plays 770 yards. There is one hole that plays 148 yards to the front of the green, two holes that play about 110-115, two that play 90 and 4 that are between 50-65. All the greens except the long ones are about half the size. The short ones are about 15 yards wide but only 5 -6 deep.

There are some bunkers and one water hazard that comes into play on one of the 110 yard holes. 

So my best score over 9 holes is -1, but that is more the exception than the norm. 

So over 18 holes (or 2 balls over 9) the par is 54. I wanted to score 63 or under.  My thought process behind that score is that of a 3,5 score average from 85 yards in. 

I didn’t score 63 though. I had 70. So that ended up with a 3.89 scoring average. 

Next time out I will play with 2 balls again, but will also keep score of GIR (pretty much all of the balls were nGIR or at least 15 were, depending on the exact distance you measure nGIR), and putts. That should give me more insight even if the greens are not real grass. 

Are my expectations too high or too low?

70 is16 above par. For me, that would be like playing to 84 or 85 with 14 more shots from using a driver plus one drive that could cost an extra stroke? My average approach shot from a 5900 to 6100 yard course is a PW or a bit less. Unless, I don’t hit woods off the tee. For me that would be one of my good rounds and 70 to 80 (par 3) a pretty bad one. My drives are not super bad these days and more than 12 are usable for par assuming my shot game isn’t total crap.

I played a real grass par 3 the other night and shot really well for me with a 62. For reference, I putt 34 on average, so not really stellar 🤪

[Carl3]

I have an 8 index (not sure what a -31 is), but played a par 3 course (has 1 par 4 hole) 80 times this past year. Takes about an hour. I had an average of 3.47 strokes over par. So I guess I play it a little better than a normal course. I should add that there are two holes that have the stick between 190 and 200 yards out and another that is about 165 yards. There are only two that play as short as 130 to 135 yards. The par 4 takes a precise tee shot and plays 335 yards.

I usually have one or two rounds per season where I shoot -1 as well as a couple where I shoot even. Rarely shoot 5 or more over. I start out hitting about 45% GIRs and end at about 55%. About 1.8 putts per hole.

So this would show that I can use some practice on getting off the tee consistently and in the short grass other wise I would expect to have a lower index. Perhaps its time to give up my little go-to course if I want my game to improve.

[cutchemist42]

Well going by the strokes gained chart,a PGA player has an expected 3 strokes off the tee at 160 yards. 

They than average 2.70 from 60 yards from the fairway.

[Killa]

16 hours ago, Shindig said:

From your index, I am guessing your scoring average (on a regulation course) is between bogey and double bogey, and closer to the latter.  This makes your score under bogey average on a course very good.  And I bet your typical par-3 hole goes like this:  tee shot, chip or pitch onto the green, putt near the hole, tap in.  Sometimes you chip it close or make the putt (or both).  Sometimes you hit the green and save the chip.  And occasionally things go the other direction.

 It should also indicate something to you:  when you get within 150 yards of the hole, and in good position, you tend to be down within four shots.  That's great news.

So let's use this knowledge to see if it can help your game.

 How are you, on a regulation course, at getting to within that 150 yard range?  Because if you can get to within 150 yards (and not in trouble) on most of your par-5s in two shots, that's a lot of strokes that people in your ability range tend to lose that you can save.  If you aren't regularly getting to that, you don't necessarily need to check a Game Golf to know:  work on your full swing (in fact, do that anyway).

 Similarly, it should give you some confidence on regulation par-3s:  find the area you can most likely get your tee shot to safely.  That might be part of the green, that might be the collection area short of the green, it might be off to one side of the green.  But get it there.  See the decision maps section of LSW and plan out these eight holes at your home course.

 

On a regulation course I shoot anywhere from 95-105. I don't take esc scores for that. So my scorecards will have some 8s and 9s as well. 

My garmin connect data says that over the past 24 rounds (including 9 hole rounds), that I've played since I got my watch (16 months), I have a +1,3 score on par 3s, +2 on par 4s and +2,4 on par 5s. I am trending a bit down on all of those numbers though. I hit 38% fairways and 15% GIR, so about 5 fairways and 3 GIR. I don't count nGIR on my watch. My average round is 3 pars, 5 bogeys and 10 bogey+. I have been working pretty much only on my golf swing for the past 2 seasons, not really following the 65/25/10 principle. It's been more like 85/10/5 for me. And some rounds it shows and some it doesn't. 

According to my watch data my hcp index should be 21. The 31 listed here is my official hcp because in Europe only tournament rounds count towards your hcp index and I've only played 1 such round all year. Out of the last 5 18 hole rounds, I've played under my official index by a total of 28 shots. 

The problem for me are blow up holes. Last round I had 4 triple bogeys and a quadruple. For example a dog leg left 550 yard par 5. Hit my hybrid off the tee in a perfect position about 190-200 yards just 15 yards short of the water hazard (can't really play over it from the tee as you need to hit a high draw around trees and over the hazard, and I'm nowhere near that). Then I was still almost 360 yards out. So for me to have a realistic shot to be nGIR I need another hybrid that goes 190 and of course I topped it straight into the water hazard. I then dropped, took a 7 iron, a 5, a pitch and 2 putts for a triple bogey. Should I just accept that I'm playing for bogey on such holes from the start? 

 

12 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

Well going by the strokes gained chart,a PGA player has an expected 3 strokes off the tee at 160 yards. 

They than average 2.70 from 60 yards from the fairway.

So at 85 yards (that's what this course averages out at 18 holes) they are probably somewhere in the 2,8 range. About 50-51 strokes or -3, -4 for the round. 

[Shindig]

8 hours ago, Killa said:

The problem for me are blow up holes. Last round I had 4 triple bogeys and a quadruple. For example a dog leg left 550 yard par 5. Hit my hybrid off the tee in a perfect position about 190-200 yards just 15 yards short of the water hazard (can't really play over it from the tee as you need to hit a high draw around trees and over the hazard, and I'm nowhere near that). Then I was still almost 360 yards out. So for me to have a realistic shot to be nGIR I need another hybrid that goes 190 and of course I topped it straight into the water hazard. I then dropped, took a 7 iron, a 5, a pitch and 2 putts for a triple bogey. Should I just accept that I'm playing for bogey on such holes from the start?  

Make a spreadsheet of your last however-many rounds at your home course.  Have a column for each hole.  Compute your average score on each.  Any that are averaging over bogey, look into what is causing the scores.  A 550 yard par-5 wouldn't be unreasonable to play as a par-6 at your level:  hit safely off the tee.  Then hit safely down the hole: longest club where the expected result is good:  don't worry about fairway vs light rough, and don't throttle down to a wedge either.  But you also don't have to kill it.  Where can you safely hit from where that's expected to be?  It probably puts you in position to hit a pitch, maybe a wedge.

As your full swing improves, the quality of that second shot improves, which makes your third shot easier ... which will also be a shot you're better at.

[cutchemist42]

8 hours ago, Killa said:

 

On a regulation course I shoot anywhere from 95-105. I don't take esc scores for that. So my scorecards will have some 8s and 9s as well. 

My garmin connect data says that over the past 24 rounds (including 9 hole rounds), that I've played since I got my watch (16 months), I have a +1,3 score on par 3s, +2 on par 4s and +2,4 on par 5s. I am trending a bit down on all of those numbers though. I hit 38% fairways and 15% GIR, so about 5 fairways and 3 GIR. I don't count nGIR on my watch. My average round is 3 pars, 5 bogeys and 10 bogey+. I have been working pretty much only on my golf swing for the past 2 seasons, not really following the 65/25/10 principle. It's been more like 85/10/5 for me. And some rounds it shows and some it doesn't. 

According to my watch data my hcp index should be 21. The 31 listed here is my official hcp because in Europe only tournament rounds count towards your hcp index and I've only played 1 such round all year. Out of the last 5 18 hole rounds, I've played under my official index by a total of 28 shots. 

The problem for me are blow up holes. Last round I had 4 triple bogeys and a quadruple. For example a dog leg left 550 yard par 5. Hit my hybrid off the tee in a perfect position about 190-200 yards just 15 yards short of the water hazard (can't really play over it from the tee as you need to hit a high draw around trees and over the hazard, and I'm nowhere near that). Then I was still almost 360 yards out. So for me to have a realistic shot to be nGIR I need another hybrid that goes 190 and of course I topped it straight into the water hazard. I then dropped, took a 7 iron, a 5, a pitch and 2 putts for a triple bogey. Should I just accept that I'm playing for bogey on such holes from the start? 

 

So at 85 yards (that's what this course averages out at 18 holes) they are probably somewhere in the 2,8 range. About 50-51 strokes or -3, -4 for the round. 

So the course is probably not setup as difficult as a PGA course but by going by the hole distances

1  150 yard   2.98

2)  110       2.93

3)  115       2.93

4) 90 (no tee data for this so using fairway)  2.76

5) 90        2.76

6) 50-60   2.65

7) 50-60  2.65

8 )  50-60   2.65

9) 50-60 2.65

If I added that up correctly I get  23.96. Not sure what kind of adjustment you would do for that for a 0 HI?  I think a USGA short course rating exists, not sure what the formula is for those distanced.

[Killa]

17 hours ago, Shindig said:

Make a spreadsheet of your last however-many rounds at your home course.  Have a column for each hole.  Compute your average score on each.  Any that are averaging over bogey, look into what is causing the scores.  A 550 yard par-5 wouldn't be unreasonable to play as a par-6 at your level:  hit safely off the tee.  Then hit safely down the hole: longest club where the expected result is good:  don't worry about fairway vs light rough, and don't throttle down to a wedge either.  But you also don't have to kill it.  Where can you safely hit from where that's expected to be?  It probably puts you in position to hit a pitch, maybe a wedge.

As your full swing improves, the quality of that second shot improves, which makes your third shot easier ... which will also be a shot you're better at.

Well from 360-380 out I can safely hit 2 7irons but that still leaves me 60-80 yards out. And getting down in 3 from that distance isn’t a given. So then I play for a double bogey from the get go. Or let’s say for an average 6,5. That seems really bad. But maybe I should just take my losses on such holes. The problem is that I’m playing pretty long courses. 6300-6600 yards and there is no option to play from the forward tees because that’s the ladies tees 😂

[HJJ003]

7 minutes ago, Killa said:

The problem is that I’m playing pretty long courses. 6300-6600 yards and there is no option to play from the forward tees because that’s the ladies tees 😂

Another example of bad course architecture. Always frustrating to see the most forward tee selections around around 6k. Anyway it’s off topic so I’ll stop there. 

[dennyjones]

31 minutes ago, Killa said:

The problem is that I’m playing pretty long courses. 6300-6600 yards and there is no option to play from the forward tees because that’s the ladies tees

That's the distance for the ladies' tee?   It wouldn't work for the forward tees anywhere I've golfed.  

[mcanadiens]

Each course and each golfer is somewhat unique, so you establish your own expectations by playing that course.

Par-3 or executive courses can vary a lot in terms of their length and difficulty. The fact that they do not carry course ratings makes it more difficult to guess what you might do until you get out there and do it.

 

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Killa said:

Well from 360-380 out I can safely hit 2 7irons but that still leaves me 60-80 yards out. And getting down in 3 from that distance isn’t a given. So then I play for a double bogey from the get go. Or let’s say for an average 6,5. That seems really bad. But maybe I should just take my losses on such holes. The problem is that I’m playing pretty long courses. 6300-6600 yards and there is no option to play from the forward tees because that’s the ladies tees 😂

Are you playing at altitude?

Only my home course’s longer course is 6000 yards from the ladies tees and it’s a pretty wide and easy course otherwise...

Everything else in a 30 mile radius has 6000 yard tees for “men” or the white tees.

I’d likely just play off the red ladies 6000 yard tees if I was really shooting 95 to 100 and only hit a hybrid 200 yards off the tee?

 

2 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Another example of bad course architecture. Always frustrating to see the most forward tee selections around around 6k. Anyway it’s off topic so I’ll stop there. 

Must be altitude or something?

2 hours ago, dennyjones said:

That's the distance for the ladies' tee?   It wouldn't work for the forward tees anywhere I've golfed.  

I think we’re talking altitude or something?

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lihu

[Killa]

3 hours ago, dennyjones said:

That's the distance for the ladies' tee?   It wouldn't work for the forward tees anywhere I've golfed.  

No sorry for the misunderstanding. I play from the 6300-6600 tees but the only tees that are forward from that are the ladies tees. And I’m not playing from there 🙂 

[Lihu]

8 hours ago, Killa said:

No sorry for the misunderstanding. I play from the 6300-6600 tees but the only tees that are forward from that are the ladies tees. And I’m not playing from there 🙂 

Why not? Is there a rule banning men from playing the ladies tees?

 

 

[Killa]

15 hours ago, Lihu said:

Why not? Is there a rule banning men from playing the ladies tees?

 

 

Yes there is. If you do you get your Man club membership revoked. 😄

 

[uitar9]

Last year I tried to use +1 as my par on every hole. It changed my 2nd shot and approach shot distances. Making them more reasonable for me...instead of grabbing the club I could hit the longest.