Importance of Strike on Distance

[Righty to Lefty]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

So?

You're acting like the "distance" is the same. It may be smaller when you look at the numbers, but those tenths of a shot become significantly harder and harder to get as you get down to scratch and beyond. Going from a 5 to a scratch is often harder than going from a 20 to a 5, IMO.

I could take two years off and still play to a 5 a few weeks after getting back into golf. I'll never be a Tour pro even if I work at it daily (I basically do, though not six hours a day or anything).

I disagree. But then again, I know what I'm looking for.

Your range: -10 --------------------------|----|------|---- +10
His range:  -10 ----|----------|----------|---------------- +10

I don't know man, that's mopping the floor with you in my book. Especially given what I feel about the difficulty of shaving even a tenth of a shot here and there once you get to and beyond scratch.

And… he's a former European Tour player. So he's not current, and he played on a weaker Tour.

I know what I'm looking for, so I don't really agree it's "not glaring." I'd see it as pretty glaring. But again, I know what I'm looking for, I guess.

You said he was flag hunting, which is complete and utter BS.

Tiger Woods was incredible in his prime from these ranges, and he, well, here:

Your buddy the former European Tour player was not flag hunting from 175 to 225.

Then your buddy is an idiot.

Nope.

Completely stupid.

I don't say that often, because I know how strong it can sound, but I assure you I mean it as strongly as it seems in this instance.

Whether you like the Decision Maps and Shades of Grey in the GamePlanning section of LSW or whether you like DECADE from Scott Fawcett, or you're just capable of looking at the table I posted up above or you've read Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie, everything I just listed would prove you (him) wrong.

You really don't, unless you're talking about tap-ins and such, or have a very unusual definition of "plenty."

Virtually every scratch golfer plays on shorter, easier courses with lower rough, softer greens, etc. The tougher the course the bigger the advantage a Tour player has over the scratch golfer or 5 handicapper.

Ultra frustrating to have everything I say in this forum taken so far out of context.  I will disregard your insults though and just reiterate...I never said that he was flag hunting....I said that his INTENT was to flag hunt.  From 250 yards out his thought processing was no different than a 50 yard shot.  He was still trying to see the shot and hit it to a spot on the green no matter how far out the shot was. Now the results will look different because the wedge was stuck to a couple feet and the fairway wood shot was hit to 40 feet but the intent was the exact same mentally and the acceptable results from each distance are very different.  Me getting into his mind was so valuable to me becoming a better golfer because it made me look at things from a different perspective...that of a Pro. Pro athletes don't care about stats in the moment...they believe they can hit every shot close to the stick and they hit their fair share.  When he said "get in the hole" right after he struck a 150 yard 9 iron or a 250 yard fairway wood shot...he meant it. 

I never said that he wasn't better than me...he is the best golfer I have ever played with in person. I'm saying that since I posses the length of a tour pro and was playing a lot of good consistent golf that I didn't feel like he was running away from me in any given round until the scores were added up at the end of the round.  He wasn't taking a shot from me on every hole...he was taking a shot from me on every 5-7 holes.  Sure even over the course of a round that adds up to 4 or 5 shots but the fact is I didn't come out of the round feeling like I didn't belong on the course with him on most days. Completely different when he went unconscious and would shoot 7 or 8 under and I would shoot 4 over and realize that he was taking a shot from me on almost every hole that we played that day!! 

[Righty to Lefty]

8 hours ago, Dean Walker said:

Thats very true. I think if a 24 handicapper for instance (no disrespect to 24 handicappers) watched me vs my friend, they might notice only a small difference and might not be able to grasp just how much better he is. 

Because the gap isn't as big as you think...it's just the margins are so slim and it is much much harder to make up that stroke as you move into plus handicap land.  The Pro is doing EVERYTHING a few percentage points better than you are so the casual observer or uneducated golfer will just see two really good golfers while the educated golfer will know that the scratch golfer has very little margin for error to even be competitive.  There is what, a stroke and a half difference per round on Tour between the guy that leads in scoring average and the guy that lost his card.  Statistically it is not that big of a number but competitively it is a mountain.  The better golfer is doing something in his/her game that is just a piece of a percentage better than his peers and then sustaining it over time. From day to day this difference probably isn't even noticeable is all I'm saying.  

Pro told me if I want to know how good a golfer is without directly asking them their handicap....work into the conversation what is the most birdies they have ever made in one round.  If the number is 0-3 grey area, 4-7 you are dealing with a good player, 8 or better...watch out!  Nothing to do with the topic but it just came to mind while I was typing this response! 

[Righty to Lefty]

9 hours ago, Dean Walker said:

I am good friends with a guy who has been on and off the European Tour. And I must say, he is on another level altogether from me and my other pals who are all low handicappers/club pros. 

The difference is massive...the relentless strike quality, control of flight, accuracy, wedge play is all far superior. 

I honestly think no matter how much I practice, his current level is unachievable for me to reach. Thats not being self defeating - it just is. 

And although hes had a couple of nice finishes, he cant keep his card for any length of time which is unfathomable to think when you watch him knock it round in 8 under for fun. Just shows how good the top players are. 

For the guy who thinks theres only a little bit of difference in every facet between a low handicapper and a tour player, please wake up. 

Im a decent golfer but I probably wouldnt break 85 from the backs at Augusta. These boys knock around in 65 with the most pressure they might face in a season. 

Difference is enormous. 

He doesn't shoot 8 under every day...his average day isn't 8 under and is closer to a couple under to a couple over par.  I played 50 rounds with a Pro and saw that they don't obliterate the course everyday and a lesser golfer can/will compete on certain days if it matches with the Pro playing one of their worse rounds. I held a lead on him twice through 15 holes but couldn't hold on!! It happened to be one of the days when he shot a couple over par and I was playing near my max ability.  But when he went unconscious I felt like I didn't even belong on the course with him! 

[iacas]

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I thought I was alone...as I often do on this forum!!

I don't think his post agreed with you as much as you think it did. And it's about a guy who hasn't even had success yet on the mini-tours.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Ultra frustrating to have everything I say in this forum taken so far out of context.I will disregard your insults though and just reiterate.

Nothing was taken out of context, nor was anything an insult. If you object to the word "stupid" when referring to the decisions or mindset, well, the word has a definition. It's not the same as calling the person stupid - everyone does stupid things from time to time. But words have meaning, and I'm just going to say what I think, not try to couch some stuff in some fluffy language that's unclear.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said that he was flag hunting....I said that his INTENT was to flag hunt.

Look, man, you did say that:

On 12/21/2018 at 12:07 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

At that point I was mostly trying to hit the green and he was still flag hunting.

That was the first time you said it, and you later added in some "intent" stuff… which doesn't change anything, because  there's really no room for distinction between "his INTENT was to flag hunt" and "he was flag hunting." Until the clubface hits the ball, they're the same exact thing.

Let's get back to the stuff that actually has to do with "importance of the strike."

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

He wasn't taking a shot from me on every hole...he was taking a shot from me on every 5-7 holes.

Who has ever said that a PGA Tour player gains a shot from you on every hole?

He gains fractionally on you with almost every shot that he hits, both in quality of strike and everything else. To me, the differences are huge, but I'm factoring in what it takes to make up that distance, the distance between a 5 handicapper who has to cheat his ball position and even a former Euro Tour player. The distance there is HUGE, and I'd be able to see it. Anyone would be able to see it. You're calling it tiny, and in the number of shots it may be small to you, but the actual quality of the strike is a HUGE bit better than you, the consistency, everything.

I guarantee you that if you put a few five handicappers on the range at a PGA Tour event, people would be able to spot them really quickly. The gap is huge, even if the gap in scoring is only going to be about 10 shots or something.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Because the gap isn't as big as you think...

We have very different definitions of "big" here. The gap is HUGE. Bigger than the gap between a 25 and a 5. Not in shots, but in quality. Counting shots is a very, very blunt instrument.

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The Pro is doing EVERYTHING a few percentage points better than you are so the casual observer or uneducated golfer will just see two really good golfers while the educated golfer will know that the scratch golfer has very little margin for error to even be competitive.

I stand by my range example and think even someone who doesn't really know golf would pick out the five handicappers pretty darn quickly, walking up and down the range.

[saevel25]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

I guarantee you that if you put a few five handicappers on the range at a PGA Tour event, people would be able to spot them really quickly. The gap is huge, even if the gap in scoring is only going to be about 10 shots or something.

It's the sound. Every PGA Tour even where I've went to the range, the sound is completely different. At least that is what comes to mind for me. 

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're calling it tiny, and in the number of shots it may be small to you, but the actual quality of the strike is a HUGE bit better than you, the consistency, everything.

This is key I think. In the end, the amount of ability and effort required to reach that level of consistency is a gigantic step. Reducing the score in golf is not linear. It gets exponentially harder. 

[Righty to Lefty]

28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's the sound. Every PGA Tour even where I've went to the range, the sound is completely different. At least that is what comes to mind for me. 

This is key I think. In the end, the amount of ability and effort required to reach that level of consistency is a gigantic step. Reducing the score in golf is not linear. It gets exponentially harder. 

I am a 5 handicap...I swing at 120 mph...I hit the ball with a ton of leverage.  On the range I promise you I could fool you...now on the course that's a different story !! I never said it was linear and I agree with your statement for the most part.  The margins are really slim at that level no doubt. 

 

[nevets88]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

It's the sound. Every PGA Tour even where I've went to the range, the sound is completely different. At least that is what comes to mind for me. 

This is key I think. In the end, the amount of ability and effort required to reach that level of consistency is a gigantic step. Reducing the score in golf is not linear. It gets exponentially harder. 

Also, to me, the higher the level, the less effort it looks like they are expending. Kind of like tennis. You watch the top guys, they have similar bodies to normal  people with similar frames but the pop off the racquet is not something you hear everyday. Or watch a concert musician perform up close. It's like superhuman. 

[Nail]

58 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am a 5 handicap...I swing at 120 mph...I hit the ball with a ton of leverage.  On the range I promise you I could fool you...now on the course that's a different story !! I never said it was linear and I agree with your statement for the most part.  The margins are really slim at that level no doubt. 

 

Seriously dude while im sure you are a good 5 handicap, your swing looks absolutely nothing like a tour pro, you have a my swing thread remember so a lot of us have seen that. Im sure the ball goes mostly where you want it but if you think you could fool anyone on a range into thinking you have a pro swing you are very much mistaken. 

Im not trying to insult you either but when you make a claim like that you are open to criticism

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am a 5 handicap...I swing at 120 mph...I hit the ball with a ton of leverage.  On the range I promise you I could fool you...now on the course that's a different story !!

Honestly, I don't give a damn if you could or not. 

BTW, I swing at near 120 mph ball speed, and I am around a 3.5 HDCP 😉. So, I get to listen to my ball strike all year round. There is a consistent difference in ball strike sound. If you can't tell the difference then you are not listening well enough. 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The margins are really slim at that level no doubt. 

Not between a 5 HDCP and a PGA Tour player. The margin is BIG!

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Also, to me, the higher the level, the less effort it looks like they are expending.

They are expending effort. They hit their driver at 97% their maximum swing speed on average. They are hitting the ball hard. It looks effortless because of their balance. 

Steady head and weight forward at impact. It does a lot to make things look easy. 😉

[iacas]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

BTW, I swing at near 120 mph ball speed

Matt, you meant clubhead speed of course, and we've measured you at over 130 MPH. 🙂

Let's stop talking about PGA Tour players. With words like "big" and stuff, there is no real agreement on the definitions, so it's really rather pointless.

Strike quality is important, but it tends to increase as you become a better player with a better swing.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Matt, you meant clubhead speed of course, and we've measured you at over 130 MPH.

Maybe...

Yea, I meant clubhead speed. 

 

[Lihu]

16 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My swing speed left handed is 120 mph right now and was as high as 129 mph.  I swing it just as fast as most any tour pro.  I'm still a 5 handicap though !!

I’ve been paired up with a few low level pro players over the years, and from what I can see, they don’t put their peak effort into their 115mph swings. One of them swings over 129, and it looks pretty controlled.

I asked (Mason from Web.com) Don’t really remember his name?) if he could swing faster than 129 and he told me most other Web players could. They don’t because the ball would not go even close to where they wanted. So, effectively, the fastest they swing with good results is average swing speed. He even told me a lot of the players were swinging 125 on average and one player with a 130+ swing.

My partner was a long drive competitor and averaged 133 on a Trackman after averaging 129 on my Mevo. He didn’t trust my Mevo 🤪 His shots with a standard driver went really long and straight. I asked him if he could swing faster and he said he could swing the club considerably faster, but he’d make horrible contact.

I was just curious about this, so I asked. My guess is you don’t have their ability to swing that fast or you’d be a +5 or something?

 

[Lihu]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:48 AM, nevets88 said:

I guess I'm easy to impress, I was in awe of the D III player I got paired with recently. Anytime I get paired with a good player, I'm looking at each swing and where it winds up with eagle eyes. Pretty darn amazing. The better they are, the easier it looks.

Their golf is boring 😂

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

I was just curious about this, so I asked. My guess is you don’t have their ability to swing that fast or you’d be a +5 or something?

Huh? @Lihu this doesn’t really make any sense.

[Vinsk]

I hit the ball all over the club face. I certainly see a substantial difference in distance with strikes that are close to the heel and toe. But every once in a while I'll hit that golden shot that doesn't have any clank, no vibrations, and the ball just takes off. It would be such a great feeling to hit that spot like the pros do so often. And I agree with what. someone mentioned about the 'sound' of the strike the pros make. I've been up real close at the API here and they certainly have a different sound and flight than anything I've been able to produce. 

[Vinsk]

9 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am a 5 handicap...I swing at 120 mph...I hit the ball with a ton of leverage.  On the range I promise you I could fool you.

No. You most certainly could not. And this isn't an insult. Nor did I take anything out of context. It's just a simple fact.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Vinsk

[Lihu]

42 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

No. You most certainly could not. And this isn't an insult. Nor did I take anything out of context. It's just a simple fact.

What I meant to say as well... 😁

[inthehole]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:01 AM, Don Golfo said:

Many golfers appear to be obsessed with driving distance.  In the drive to increase distance they focus on new drivers, custom shafts and increasing their swing speed. I’d contend that the best way to increase the consistency and length of the tee actually involves improving the way in which they strike the ball.  Average golfers have a swingspeed between 85-95mph.  An averagely poor strike (off centre with a slightly glancing blow) at 85 mph results in a carry of 180-185 yards and barely runs out 195-200 yards in good conditions.  In contrast a pure strike might carry 205 yards and run out past 220 yards. At 95 mph, taking the same approach total driving distance will vary from 230-265 yards. That’s a prize of between 25-35 yards.  Could all the money spent on drivers and shafts be better invested in lessons and understanding how to improve strike and launch conditions?

 I fit the swing speed parameters you mentioned.    This is exactly why through experimentation with several drivers over the years,  I cut 1-1/4" off my drivers so that I make consistent center face contact.    For me, the result is dramatically better than using a full length shaft & having a huge distance variation due to inconsistent center face contact.   A nicely struck drive with my shorter driver will fly way past a toe or heel shot with a longer one - EVERY time.     It's a no brainer for the mid to higher hcp players to shorter their drivers IMHO, unless you have unlimited range time to hone your swing and can take consistent advantage of a full length shaft   ...

Edited December 23, 2018 by inthehole