Is This a Hole in One?

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I respect your superior knowledge and experience with the rules, but the rules do not make that definition.  The definition of the putting green doesn't provide any clarification.  I am doing my best to read just what the words say, and interpret them accordingly.

It’s not me saying it. It’s the guy who wrote the rule.

It’s the level of the putting green AT THAT POINT.

It’s not “the level of the putting green”  anywhere on the green. It’s not even on the opposite side of the hole which if the ground is sloped might be a little bit higher.

[ncates00]

I can't tell from the video or the still shot whether any part of the ball is below the hole.  It doesn't look like it is.

[Zippo]

Wow! So close. I would be really bummed - in a good way - if this happened to me. Sorry, @RustUKUnfortunately, from the images I see, I'd also have to say not holed. In any event, I leave the flag in when putting but now I will make sure the flag is straight before I putt.

[RustUK]

14 hours ago, burr said:

Ace - that shot falls if the pin moves, whether removing or straightening.  @Rustuk, please give us details on hole, shot, club, GREAT SHOT !

It was a short 125 yard par 3 slightly up hill.  A well struck pitching wedge, but you can't see the bottom of the flag so didn't see it land.  I thought I'd gone too long, but my friend thought it was close.  Turns out he was right!

I wish I'd taken some pictures from ground level, so I had a better chance of determining whether any part of the ball was underground.  Wasn't 100% sure of the rules at the time and didn't want to hold up the group behind by taking too long.

It seems by the strict letter of the law that, as I don't think any of the ball was under the surface it isn't a hole in one.  But that just seems wrong as it was over half way in to the hole and clearly leaning in to the hole.  My friend gently centred the flag and it dropped in the hole.

I'm just glad it wasn't my first hole in one as I would be really gutted right now!

[burr]

Iits a shame that a rule such as this can be so black and white, especially since it seems that the official rules of golf have changed on this subject.  I like gray - and the tradition that the game is an honorable game among gentlemen (or ladies).  Meanwhile, if you think about it, a touring pro can wave on his playing partner with subtle knowledge that the shot could be helped with him not marking his ball.  What if you had this same attitude and allowed other three golf partners play without marking - ALL THE WAY UP TO THE HOLE !!  Definitely think that any 'accidental collision' with an incoming shot would have finished the deed.

I've not had an ace yet - in 35 years of pure enjoyment, although I've come real close - once, at JonesCreek in Evans, Ga, I 'slam dunked' a tee shot (165yds or so downhill) and the cup burped it out for a 2 inch bird.  and on a side note, JonesCreek, a real gem of an upscale course 20 minutes from MagnoliaLane, has closed down (not two months from the tournament which is such a huge week around here for courses).

Good for you on previous aces, I can't wait !!

[Cantankerish]

3 hours ago, RustUK said:

It seems by the strict letter of the law that, as I don't think any of the ball was under the surface it isn't a hole in one.  But that just seems wrong as it was over half way in to the hole and clearly leaning in to the hole.  My friend gently centred the flag and it dropped in the hole.

These two concepts are mutually exclusive.  Unless gravity or the laws of geometry ceased to exist on that green, a ball more than half over the hole must have had some portion under the surface that was supporting the less than half part.  The only way the flagstick itself can prevent the ball from having some portion under the surface is if the ball is either not at least half over the hole, or the stick is at an angle somewhat under the ball.  I challenge anyone to recreate a scenario where a leaning flag in the angle shown prevents a ball at more than 50% over the hole from falling.

The imperfect height and quality of the lip is not important here. You were there and we were not.  As long as you and your mates feel confident that the ball was in fact more than half beyond the lip, you aced it, dude.  Well done.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

These two concepts are mutually exclusive.  Unless gravity or the laws of geometry ceased to exist on that green, a ball more than half over the hole must have had some portion under the surface that was supporting the less than half part.  The only way the flagstick itself can prevent the ball from having some portion under the surface is if the ball is either not at least half over the hole, or the stick is at an angle somewhat under the ball.  I challenge anyone to recreate a scenario where a leaning flag in the angle shown prevents a ball at more than 50% over the hole from falling.

The imperfect height and quality of the lip is not important here. You were there and we were not.  As long as you and your mates feel confident that the ball was in fact more than half beyond the lip, you aced it, dude.  Well done.

That’s not the Rule, nor is more than half the ball over the hole.

Years ago there was debate about a ball sitting on a twig over the hole. I believe that one was also not a HIO.

[Cantankerish]

I don’t know what rule you are talking about, and I don’t know what rule you think I’m talking about.  Can you be clear please.

 

[RustUK]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

nor is more than half the ball over the hole.

Yes it was.  If you watch the video closely, as the wind subsides and the flag moves towards the centre of the cup, the ball follows it.  We are only talking about fractions of inches but the ball would not stay connected to the flag as the flag moved away from it, if more than half of the ball wasn't over the hole.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, RustUK said:

Yes it was.  If you watch the video closely, as the wind subsides and the flag moves towards the centre of the cup, the ball follows it.  We are only talking about fractions of inches but the ball would not stay connected to the flag as the flag moved away from it, if more than half of the ball wasn't over the hole.

I disagree, and I’ve explained the movement a few times now.

At the end of the day, you were there and the fact that you had to ask us tells me that you had serious doubts.  Nothing against you personally at all but I don’t think it meets the qualifications for being holed.

[Cantankerish]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree, and I’ve explained the movement a few times now.

Gosh, this is getting kinda silly.  But since the position of the ball is the only real issue here...

 

"With the single angle of perspective I got from the video and pic, I know the circumstances of the ball better than the person who actually witnessed it first hand because _________."

If you can fill in that blank with any defensible reason, I will happily yield this entire discussion to you.

[burr]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree, and I’ve explained the movement a few times now.

At the end of the day, you were there and the fact that you had to ask us tells me that you had serious doubts.  Nothing against you personally at all but I don’t think it meets the qualifications for being holed.

No doubts, but as I stated, it is an honorable game...

[iacas]

He asked a question. He had doubts. I answered @Cantankerish and backed up my answer.

[Vinsk]

How do you putt a ball that’s in contact with the flag stick? People keep saying if you straighten the flag...well the rules allow us to putt with the flag in. So is that a legitimate putt if you putt while the ball is in contact with the flag stick?

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

How do you putt a ball that’s in contact with the flag stick?

You don't need to. If you do, and the ball still isn't holed… well that'd be just dumb on your part.

If the ball isn't holed, you take the flag stick out and put the ball on the lip and tap it in.

46 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

How do you putt a ball that’s in contact with the flag stick? People keep saying if you straighten the flag...well the rules allow us to putt with the flag in. So is that a legitimate putt if you putt while the ball is in contact with the flag stick?

No reason it wouldn't be.

[Aguirre]

This is why so many people (even serious golfers like myself) roll their eyes at the rule zealots. 

That's a hole in one, I'm counting it as such, congrats to the OP, the rest of you are not invited to my foursome.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Aguirre

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Aguirre said:

This is why so many people (even serious golfers like myself) roll their eyes at the rule zealots. 

That's bull.

But hey, if the football stops six inches short of crossing the plane, let's just call it a touchdown anyway, eh? 😛

[David in FL]

5 minutes ago, Aguirre said:

This is why so many people (even serious golfers like myself) roll their eyes at the rule zealots. 

That's a hole in one, I'm counting it as such, congrats to the OP, the rest of you are not invited to my foursome.

My buddies don’t give me lip-outs either.  The bastards!