The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[BuckeyeNut]

On Friday I played with my friend as a twosome.

The twosome in front of us played two balls for every hole...  There was a huge backup behind us and they were completely ignorant of the delay they were causing.   Courses need marshals to make sure play like that doesn't happen.  Just incredibly rude to everybody else on the course.

This is how I would handle that situation:

If  we knew for certain there were empty holes ahead......we'd press them a bit to see if they'd wave us through.    We'd give it 1 hole.....then drive around to the next tee.  Once we got far enough in front of them, we'd play a "Make-up" hole along the way.

My 2 cents....

[JonMA1]

The worst is still a poor player who loses balls everywhere, searches for them forever and generally has no clue as to what to do to keep things moving, not even realizing that they are slow.  On the other hand, the good players who are slow tend to know it and not care, which is probably less "fixable" than the poor players not knowing, for whom a little education (the responsibility of better players playing along with them) tends to help.

This has been discussed in other threads, but I need to improve on paying better attention to where a "less-than-perfect" shot has landed and rolled.

I rarely get pushed however even when walking. As I said earlier, it's usually very easy to pull away from anyone behind me. I am lucky in that I can play at times and at courses when I may be the only one on the course. I read these threads and posts about slow play and wonder how anyone can enjoy themselves.

[Dave2512]

More than being aware of where the ball lands people should play the course in a way that best suits their skill. The people I see getting out of position are like moronic zombie robots programmed to make the same mistakes over and over. I watch guys that hit big slices stand on the tee of holes with huge ponds on the right that start around the 150 marker and hug the fairway all the way to the green pull out a driver and rip it right. What makes them think it won't happen again when they just did it 4x in a row on the previous holes?

But here's the real problem with hitting into trouble, you have to hit out of trouble. This is where the time starts to get away from people. Not only are they looking for the initial errant shot but the next shot is rarely straight forward. Whether it's a punch shot or a drop they had to take where the ball crossed a margin 40 yards short of where they could have played a safe shot with a club they can better control it puts them in weird in between spots. If the standard is GIR few do what they can to achieve that it's just blast, chase and hope.

[Jon Hoover]

What's the Rush..... pfft more like Whats the Hold Up?! I play with a good amount of people who consistently shoot over 100, and a leisurely pace is 3:30 hrs, if the course is open its more like 3 hrs or under, 4 hours or over is just brutally slow. This is in carts, and there is still plenty of time for conversation/jokes, its all about, as others have said, ready golf. When someone else is taking a shot in the fairway you should be at your ball, if not directly in front of them, so as soon as they hit you are hitting soon after. If someone blades it from the bunker over the green people should be tending the flag and putting not waiting for that person to hit again, and anything within a grip and a fist (standard putter grip) is a gimme pick it up and keep the game moving. I don't have a wife or kids but I do have a life and other things to get done on any given day, even if you are letting people through you are still slowing down the course to some extend just keep that in mind. If you think about it in context there aren't many sport activities that if you spent 3 hours to complete would be considered rushing.

[pumaAttack]

What's the Rush..... pfft more like Whats the Hold Up?! I play with a good amount of people who consistently shoot over 100, and a leisurely pace is 3:30 hrs, if the course is open its more like 3 hrs or under, 4 hours or over is just brutally slow. This is in carts, and there is still plenty of time for conversation/jokes, its all about, as others have said, ready golf. When someone else is taking a shot in the fairway you should be at your ball, if not directly in front of them, so as soon as they hit you are hitting soon after. If someone blades it from the bunker over the green people should be tending the flag and putting not waiting for that person to hit again, and anything within a grip and a fist (standard putter grip) is a gimme pick it up and keep the game moving. I don't have a wife or kids but I do have a life and other things to get done on any given day, even if you are letting people through you are still slowing down the course to some extend just keep that in mind. If you think about it in context there aren't many sport activities that if you spent 3 hours to complete would be considered rushing.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with that.  The whole point of golf is to make the ball in the hole, why do you want to skip that part??  I just don't get the gimmie mentality at all.  If you know you are gonna make the putt, step up and nail it.  That shouldn't take any longer than picking up your putt after measuring the distance... If you don't always make the putt, then why cheat and give yourself a gimmie?

Plus I like hearing the sound of the ball going into the hole.

[Jon Hoover]

Sorry but I strongly disagree with that.  The whole point of golf is to make the ball in the hole, why do you want to skip that part??  I just don't get the gimmie mentality at all.  If you know you are gonna make the putt, step up and nail it.  That shouldn't take any longer than picking up your putt after measuring the distance... If you don't always make the putt, then why cheat and give yourself a gimmie?

Plus I like hearing the sound of the ball going into the hole.

Gimmes help speed up the game, it can take some people close to 1-3 min to walk up mark align practice and putt a 12" putt that they will make 999/1000 times. If your playing with 4 people and they each have to take an additional lets say 1 minutes on maybe 10 holes each, your saving 40 mins at the end of the round.

[pumaAttack]

Gimmes help speed up the game, it can take some people close to 1-3 min to walk up mark align practice and putt a 12" putt that they will make 999/1000 times. If your playing with 4 people and they each have to take an additional lets say 1 minutes on maybe 10 holes each, your saving 40 mins at the end of the round.

3 minutes to knock in a 1 foot putt??

I honestly can't see it taking more than an additional 15 seconds to make the putt vs. picking it up.

And you are paying to play golf, not just walk the course.  Why don't you actually finish the hole?  It would also save time to not hit your drive and just walk to where your drive should have gone...

[Dave2512]

People aren't losing time 3 feet from the hole. If they are slow the damage was done prior to getting to that point. But it is typical for people that dally to dally everywhere on the course. To me they appear more oblivious than anything.

This is the stuff I see that drives me nuts. Guy hits errant drive and there is a search. Faces difficult second shot that doesn't land close to the green. The group gets close to the green and everyone stands around watching the guy in trouble because he is still furthest out. Because they all lack skill most of them duff a chip/pitch and the process of watching and waiting while the person furthest out plays starts over. They are finally all on the green, nobody putting for par and probably not bogey either but they all mark and line up putts like their lives depend on making the putt which of course everyone misses. Someone might even tend the freakin' flag instead of preparing for their own putt.

When everyone finally gets the ball in the hole the air counting of strokes begins. This happens while they are on or near the green preventing the group behind from playing their approach shots. And because they are numbskulls they probably didn't take care to park their carts in a good spot so until they actually put away their clubs, which is always a long process, and are moving towards the next hole they are still in the danger zone.

Because they dally in the time it takes the faster group behind to play their approaches and hole out the slow group may not be clear or far from the next tee. Usually because someone in the group has blown a drive trying to kill it to make up for the triple they just made so they are searching again or hitting a second ball because the first one landed in an adjacent county. Couple holes of this and the quicker groups behind stack up until there is enough space to play through the slow group. Which becomes a slow process creating a drag on the pace because everyone can't play through and the slow group gets pinched between faster groups because they never make an effort to catch up.

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes to knock in a 1 foot putt??

I honestly can't see it taking more than an additional 15 seconds to make the putt vs. picking it up.

If it's done correctly, it shouldn't take more than a few seconds, I agree.  OTOH, if somebody actually takes the time to mark it and align it and go through a routine to knock it in - made even worse if they mark it and pick it up then wait for somebody else to putt and then go though all of that, then it can add a bit of time when all is said and done.

The problem isn't as much from that exact action, but rather, the type of player who is that methodical for a gimme putt is likely that methodical about a lot of other things as well, and is just generally slow.

I like to make all putts as well, but I'm also not averse to taking gimmes either.  After all, its a 12" putt we're talking about.  I've missed one of those ONCE that I can remember so I'm not hurting anything or anybody by grabbing it and moving on.  I will take the gimme if its given to me or if I would have to stand in somebody's line to knock it in.

[Fourputt]

People aren't losing time 3 feet from the hole. If they are slow the damage was done prior to getting to that point. But it is typical for people that dally to dally everywhere on the course. To me they appear more oblivious than anything.

This is the stuff I see that drives me nuts. Guy hits errant drive and there is a search. Faces difficult second shot that doesn't land close to the green. The group gets close to the green and everyone stands around watching the guy in trouble because he is still furthest out. Because they all lack skill most of them duff a chip/pitch and the process of watching and waiting while the person furthest out plays starts over. They are finally all on the green, nobody putting for par and probably not bogey either but they all mark and line up putts like their lives depend on making the putt which of course everyone misses. Someone might even tend the freakin' flag instead of preparing for their own putt.

When everyone finally gets the ball in the hole the air counting of strokes begins. This happens while they are on or near the green preventing the group behind from playing their approach shots. And because they are numbskulls they probably didn't take care to park their carts in a good spot so until they actually put away their clubs, which is always a long process, and are moving towards the next hole they are still in the danger zone.

Because they dally in the time it takes the faster group behind to play their approaches and hole out the slow group may not be clear or far from the next tee. Usually because someone in the group has blown a drive trying to kill it to make up for the triple they just made so they are searching again or hitting a second ball because the first one landed in an adjacent county. Couple holes of this and the quicker groups behind stack up until there is enough space to play through the slow group. Which becomes a slow process creating a drag on the pace because everyone can't play through and the slow group gets pinched between faster groups because they never make an effort to catch up.

So according to you, only good players should be allowed on the course?  That's pretty much the message you are sending.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

People aren't losing time 3 feet from the hole. If they are slow the damage was done prior to getting to that point. But it is typical for people that dally to dally everywhere on the course. To me they appear more oblivious than anything.

This is the stuff I see that drives me nuts. Guy hits errant drive and there is a search. Faces difficult second shot that doesn't land close to the green. The group gets close to the green and everyone stands around watching the guy in trouble because he is still furthest out. Because they all lack skill most of them duff a chip/pitch and the process of watching and waiting while the person furthest out plays starts over. They are finally all on the green, nobody putting for par and probably not bogey either but they all mark and line up putts like their lives depend on making the putt which of course everyone misses. Someone might even tend the freakin' flag instead of preparing for their own putt.

When everyone finally gets the ball in the hole the air counting of strokes begins. This happens while they are on or near the green preventing the group behind from playing their approach shots. And because they are numbskulls they probably didn't take care to park their carts in a good spot so until they actually put away their clubs, which is always a long process, and are moving towards the next hole they are still in the danger zone.

Because they dally in the time it takes the faster group behind to play their approaches and hole out the slow group may not be clear or far from the next tee. Usually because someone in the group has blown a drive trying to kill it to make up for the triple they just made so they are searching again or hitting a second ball because the first one landed in an adjacent county. Couple holes of this and the quicker groups behind stack up until there is enough space to play through the slow group. Which becomes a slow process creating a drag on the pace because everyone can't play through and the slow group gets pinched between faster groups because they never make an effort to catch up.

So according to you, only good players should be allowed on the course?  That's pretty much the message you are sending.

I didn't get that at all.  The message I got was, "don't fart around."

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

People aren't losing time 3 feet from the hole. If they are slow the damage was done prior to getting to that point. But it is typical for people that dally to dally everywhere on the course. To me they appear more oblivious than anything.

This is the stuff I see that drives me nuts. Guy hits errant drive and there is a search. Faces difficult second shot that doesn't land close to the green. The group gets close to the green and everyone stands around watching the guy in trouble because he is still furthest out. Because they all lack skill most of them duff a chip/pitch and the process of watching and waiting while the person furthest out plays starts over. They are finally all on the green, nobody putting for par and probably not bogey either but they all mark and line up putts like their lives depend on making the putt which of course everyone misses. Someone might even tend the freakin' flag instead of preparing for their own putt.

When everyone finally gets the ball in the hole the air counting of strokes begins. This happens while they are on or near the green preventing the group behind from playing their approach shots. And because they are numbskulls they probably didn't take care to park their carts in a good spot so until they actually put away their clubs, which is always a long process, and are moving towards the next hole they are still in the danger zone.

Because they dally in the time it takes the faster group behind to play their approaches and hole out the slow group may not be clear or far from the next tee. Usually because someone in the group has blown a drive trying to kill it to make up for the triple they just made so they are searching again or hitting a second ball because the first one landed in an adjacent county. Couple holes of this and the quicker groups behind stack up until there is enough space to play through the slow group. Which becomes a slow process creating a drag on the pace because everyone can't play through and the slow group gets pinched between faster groups because they never make an effort to catch up.

So according to you, only good players should be allowed on the course?  That's pretty much the message you are sending.

I didn't get that at all.  The message I got was, "don't fart around."

He  has several times tried to put the blame on bad play, instead of where it belongs on slow players.  He makes statements that sound like he never lost a ball or hit one into trouble, or if he did, it didn't cause any delay.  Maybe I do Dave an injustice, but the way he makes his point rubs me the wrong way.  I doubt that he began his golfing life as a 7 handicap.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

I didn't get that at all.  The message I got was, "don't fart around."

He  has several times tried to put the blame on bad play, instead of where it belongs on slow players.  He makes statements that sound like he never lost a ball or hit one into trouble, or if he did, it didn't cause any delay.  Maybe I do Dave an injustice, but the way he makes his point rubs me the wrong way.  I doubt that he began his golfing life as a 7 handicap.

Fair enough.  I just read through the thread and agree with your interpretation.

[Dave2512]

He  has several times tried to put the blame on bad play, instead of where it belongs on slow players.  He makes statements that sound like he never lost a ball or hit one into trouble, or if he did, it didn't cause any delay.  Maybe I do Dave an injustice, but the way he makes his point rubs me the wrong way.  I doubt that he began his golfing life as a 7 handicap.

I didn't but I didn't mess around either. And yes I do think the under skilled take an inordinate amount of time on the course. Mostly because they are new to the game and don't understand it doesn't have to be that way.

You seem to believe bad play can be accomplished in a quick fashion. To that I say it's not common. No unskilled golfer is just hitting shots towards the target where the only problem is so-so contact the result being it just lacks distance. I had to get to a 15ish handicap before that was the case for me. There is always going to be searching because they aren't inching it through the intended areas of play, it's in weeds and hazards, bouncing off trees, hitting paths and bounding into who knows what.

This is where the time is lost. They are bad golfers because they lack control of where the ball is going, hard to keep track of a less than 2" diameter ball in a large grassy area when it's flying all over the place. It's rarely as simple as hit the ball move directly to it and hit it again and even when it is the likelihood of the ball going anywhere but towards the target it high. It's not the number of shots they take but how they do it. That's all I am saying. At some point it will exceed the intended pace of play for a hole, usually more than once during a round.

[pumaAttack]

Yes, poor golfers tend to take more time than elite golfers but it's not their fault they are slow.

I only get upset when good golfers lolly gag around or hit two balls.  Deliberate slow play.  If somebody is just learning and struggling, I don't see why we should get mad at them for taking longer.  I know I would appreciate the patience if I was struggling out there, it's no fun feeling rushed and stressed from playing poorly.

[Ongle]

It would also save time to not hit your drive and just walk to where your drive should have gone...

I think you might be on to something here! Lots of good points in this thread. The one I personally can identify with most is "ready golf". I mentioned this in the pet peeves thread about the work colleague I sometimes play with (who I also mentioned above, Mr Worldofhisown) and he has a massive issue with "ready golf". We can get to a tee, 3 of us will tee off in turn, he's the last to go and instead of having ball/tee in hand, club selected and glove on, he'll start getting ready once it's his turn. It's SO frustrating. Another of his tricks is to stand in the middle of the green we've just completed, tun around and mentally count his shots along the hole! WTF, how can you not know what you're putting for, this what score you got? He'll then ask our scores, even with guys waiting to hit into the green! We have to almost drag him off. It's just rudeness, based deeply in a blinkered, self absorbed attitude. He's the kind of person that'd say: "I'm a good driver (car not golf), I've never caused a crash! I've seen a few happen in my read view mirror though!"

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

He  has several times tried to put the blame on bad play, instead of where it belongs on slow players.  He makes statements that sound like he never lost a ball or hit one into trouble, or if he did, it didn't cause any delay.  Maybe I do Dave an injustice, but the way he makes his point rubs me the wrong way.  I doubt that he began his golfing life as a 7 handicap.

I didn't but I didn't mess around either. And yes I do think the under skilled take an inordinate amount of time on the course. Mostly because they are new to the game and don't understand it doesn't have to be that way.

You seem to believe bad play can be accomplished in a quick fashion. To that I say it's not common. No unskilled golfer is just hitting shots towards the target where the only problem is so-so contact the result being it just lacks distance. I had to get to a 15ish handicap before that was the case for me. There is always going to be searching because they aren't inching it through the intended areas of play, it's in weeds and hazards, bouncing off trees, hitting paths and bounding into who knows what.

This is where the time is lost. They are bad golfers because they lack control of where the ball is going, hard to keep track of a less than 2" diameter ball in a large grassy area when it's flying all over the place. It's rarely as simple as hit the ball move directly to it and hit it again and even when it is the likelihood of the ball going anywhere but towards the target it high. It's not the number of shots they take but how they do it. That's all I am saying. At some point it will exceed the intended pace of play for a hole, usually more than once during a round.

Two weeks ago, my brother and I played 36 holes at Pole Creek, starting at 11 AM.  We had to play through a half dozen slower groups, and neither of us broke 90 either round.  We both had lost balls, we both had several errant shots that took 2 or 3 minutes of searching to find the ball.  There were several long drives between green and tee.  Despite that we still averaged 10 minutes per hole, finishing each 18 hole round in 3 hours.  After taking over an hour for a lunch and rain break between the rounds, we were still headed back to my sister's house by 6:30.  Basically we both played like crap and still kept a pace of 10 minutes per hole.

My wife has never broken 100 in her life, yet she is usually the one trying to hurry me when we play together, and I'm not slow.  Your contention that bad golfers are the culprit is simply not valid.  The problem is slow players, and slow players are usually just uneducated in the processes required to play at a good pace.  Some of the slowest players I've known are mid to low double digit handicappers (10-15 caps), experienced because I played in the same flights with them in 22 years of tournaments, and often in casual rounds too.  I played with guys who I wanted to shoot and bury so that I could get on with it, and most of them were not inexperienced players, nor were they bad players.  They were just slow.  They did nothing quickly, from the moment they stepped onto the course.

Another group that tended to play slowly was high school players, trying out for the team or during team play.  They were not only encouraged to play "deliberately" by their coaches, but they were some of the slowest walkers I ever saw on a golf course.  I think that they learned to walk strolling at the mall gawking at the girls, and that same pace seemed to carry over to the golf course.  These kids were usually good to outstanding players, but when they teed off, I radioed the ranger to keep an eye on them because I knew we were going to have an issue.

[pumaAttack]

Another group that tended to play slowly was high school players, trying out for the team or during team play.  They were not only encouraged to play "deliberately" by their coaches, but they were some of the slowest walkers I ever saw on a golf course.  I think that they learned to walk strolling at the mall gawking at the girls, and that same pace seemed to carry over to the golf course.  These kids were usually good to outstanding players, but when they teed off, I radioed the ranger to keep an eye on them because I knew we were going to have an issue.

Ugh...

My local practice area and driving range has been swarmed with high school golfers lately.  They are completely devoid of self awareness, crowd around all the other patrons, talk loudly and rudely about HS topics, and just show a general lack of respect to others.

They act like the course is just for them, so I can see why they play the course slowly.  And they are probably joking around/pranking each other more during their rounds, which causes slow play.