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PureStrike 5SK, Stack and Tilt, Etc.

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 

The question has been raised in a few places, some as a curiosity and some not as nicely, about whether 5 Simple Keys® is a "copy" or progression from Stack and Tilt. Parallel to that is the question of what or who influenced the 5SK project.

 

As many know, 5SK is a joint effort between myself and Chuck Evans as part of the Medicus team, and as such, our list of influences is quite long. I would start with the following: Homer Kelley, Mac O'Grady, Mike Bender, Randy Smith, Seymour Dunn, Percy Boomer, Jim Hardy, Davis Love Jr., Trackman, Flightscope, Swing Catalyst (none of the other pressure point systems quite frankly measure up, no pun intended), Sam Balance Lab, AMM, etc. AND most importantly our desire to know more and not be satisfied with one pattern or one set of data. To this point, I would also, most definitely, say that Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer (The Stack and Tilt Swing) had an influence as I have done many schools with them and we have been friends for a very long time. I can assume from our conversations that they, personally, are happy to see a friend and colleague have the opportunity to share information with golfers in the manner in which they choose.

 

If you got their full list of influences, you'd see a very similar list as mine, so I can understand why some people might think that I was influenced more by Mike and Andy than I was in traveling a similar route to my current understanding of the golf swing.

 

Over the past few years I've chosen to do many schools with Mike and Andy as I believe they did a great job putting together THEIR TAKE on many other great teacher's ideas. What is most interesting to me is how that is EXACTLY what the PureStrike, 5 Simple Keys project is... My take and Chuck Evans's take on the clues and roadmaps left by many other great teachers... as well as the information and data that was available to us in doing OUR OWN research (and trust me we did a lot of it).

 

5 Simple Keys is the result of that constantly evolving research and never ending search for answers (I say at every seminar that if someone finds a 6th Simple Key please let us know and we will happily rename the system). To say it is a copy of Stack and Tilt or anything else is misguided at best. In fact it is NOT a pattern, a swing, or even a "way" to swing. We teach as many players to fade as to draw...to hit up on drivers, to even move their head slightly if it helps them... to use what they do naturally. As long as the 5 Simple Keys are covered consistently nothing else REALLY matters because the player will improve significantly.

 

Let's go through each of the 5 Keys (the 5 things that virtually every great player has in common) one by one to dig a bit further:

 

Key #1 Steady Head

We have used the example of Jack Grout holding Nicklaus's head at almost every school we have ever done. We have seen players for the past 50+ years with clubs shafts held against their head. This advice has been espoused by players at the top level for a VERY LONG TIME. Have I said enough yet? All we did was VERIFY that players were doing what they thought they were at the highest level. Once that was proven we were comfortable it was a Key.

 

Key #2 Weight Forward

Our pressure plate data (verified several times over) actually shows that the key here is to have the weight predominantly forward at impact. The weight is mostly centered throughout the backswing and start down, and pressure in the top players will even tend to be back, particularly during transition. There is a constant, slowish, transfer of that weight/pressure during the downswing. We are not saying weight forward throughout and believe this would be a mistake for many players.

 

Key #3 Flat Left Wrist

Even the term itself is from another source (TGM). This has been a staple of great ball strikers FOREVER. Enough said really.

 

Key #4 Diagonal Sweet Spot Path

Mike Hebron told me once that the sweetspot path had to work in this manner because of the tool itself (the club). I'm sure he was not the first one to say it and won't be the last but it has always resonated with me. We believe there are many options and variations available to keep that path diagonal and it is not a prerequisite to play a draw. In fact, I myself, play a fade as it works best FOR ME.

 

Key #5 Clubface Control

A very simple understanding of the true ball flight laws and how to implement them to play the best golf possible. No disrespect meant to any human but I will thank Trackman, Flightscope, and the like for this one. We are comfortable with players starting the ball left OR right within the 5SK system... just as we are comfortable with players hitting up on drivers (in fact we often recommend it).

 

While we are at it let's go through the three S&T fundamentals (which "overall" I agree with and think Mike and Andy did a good job organizing).

 

#1: Hit the ball first - makes all the sense in the world. Keep the head "still" and weight forward to help with this. I would say we 100% agree on these points but we all got our information from other, very intelligent, golf instructors and sources.

 

#2: Hit the ball far enough to play the course - the 5 Simple Keys do not mention this and will not. We believe it is very possible to hit the ball longer if you attain more of the 5 Keys but in no way can everyone learn to hit the ball far enough to play the course. It's simply not possible for everyone so, in our opinion, it is not fundamental to each individual playing as well as they can play.

 

#3: Controlling the curve - I like this wording and believe this is extremely important, but in the case of SnT it really boils down to hitting a push-draw. I don't think anyone would argue that and, again, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with it but to say 5SK somehow copied something here is, again, misleading and unfair.

 

At the end of the day, to say that we've copied S&T and re-packaged it shows a severe lack of understanding for the knowledge I, Chuck Evans, and other members of 5SK have obtained throughout our careers, and completely dismisses the independent research and the knowledge and information we've obtained in doing so.

 

While the Stack and Tilt golf swing is a swing that adheres to the 5 Simple Keys, it's one swing, while the 5SK encompasses EVERY good swing from Jim Furyk to Luke Donald to Vijay Singh and Tiger Woods and Graeme McDowell.

 

I named my academy "Golf Evolution" precisely because evolution is a constant and ongoing process, not a stake in the ground saying "we've arrived at the perfect swing."

post #2 of 35

Awesome!! Very well put Dave. 

Also, I wanted to say that you'll end up on a lot of people's list of influences in the future, including mine. 

post #3 of 35

WOW, the answers to many questions I was afraid to ask. You know how much I love TGM and it's derivatives. I enjoy your work very much and appreciate all the information you and Chuck have shared over the years. I'm very anxious to find the time to watch my 5 Keys DVDs in depth.

 

Thanks Dave,

Kevin

post #4 of 35
Very well written Dave and I thought it needed to be done bc the silliness is ridiculous.. I'll +1 on cbrians thoughts as well... thanks for sharing everything.
post #5 of 35

To add to what Dave has already said, I have the highest respect for Mike and Andy and for what they have brought to the table despite what could be the most criticized approach to teaching golf.  They have had their fair - or should I say unfair - share of those criticisms and continue to moving forward.

 

I have to admit that I was amongst those who unfairly criticized the guys early on.  It wasn't until after we had spent time together, filming the first DVD, that I recognized that what and how they were doing S&T really wasn't anything new.  They spent time researching, asking questions, trying various combinations - just like ANY good instructor would - and came up with their own cataloging system.

 

By the way, cataloging isn't a new concept either.  

The first golf instruction book I can remember that cataloged virtually everything that COULD happen in a golf swing was The Golfing Machine.  After Mac O'Grady spent time with Mr. Kelley and then decided to "write" his own book, he took cataloging to another level.  Now Mike and Andy have taken the same concept of cataloging.

 

For all any of us know there are others out in our teaching world that are also cataloging...we just haven't heard of them...yet.

But to say the 5SK is merely a "red-headed" stepchild of S&T is not only incorrect but irresponsible by any stretch. We wish Mike and Andy nothing but great success, as we do others in our very competitive field.  We can all learn from one another and the day we stop learning...is the day to hang up the spikes.
 

Are we to say that the greatest players didn't have the 5 Keys? Or they didn't have the three S&T "fundamentals?"  Of course not.  BUT...they had these long before 5SK or S&T !

post #6 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrian View Post

Awesome!! Very well put Dave. 

Also, I wanted to say that you'll end up on a lot of people's list of influences in the future, including mine. 

Thanks Brian...and I will STAND and cheer when you get the opportunities that are sure to come your way.

post #7 of 35

Do you guys, or will you guys, be accrediting any Canadian instructors?

 

I have a swing coach on Salary (who believes in all of the things you have pointed out), so im not necessarily looking for more instruction, im very happy with where i've come from and how im improving, but I would still like to try these seminars.

 

Having trouble finding aimpoint up here as well :(

post #8 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrian View Post

Awesome!! Very well put Dave. 

Also, I wanted to say that you'll end up on a lot of people's list of influences in the future, including mine. 

And, by extension, he'll end up on mine as well.  (I tried to put 2 + 2 together based on a couple of other threads and I think you might be the same Brian teaching me) c2_beer.gif

post #9 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post

Do you guys, or will you guys, be accrediting any Canadian instructors?

 

We'll be expanding our list of instructors over time. We're choosing only the best and they get in either by admission via Chuck, Dave, or myself or by recommendation of one or several of our other Directors.

 


 

To the topic at hand, anyone who wants to say that we've "copied" is clearly unaware of the incredible amount of time we've spent advancing our knowledge base, learning more, studying more, applying more technology, getting more measurements, and investing effort into growing and, again, "evolving" as instructors.

post #10 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

And, by extension, he'll end up on mine as well.  (I tried to put 2 + 2 together based on a couple of other threads and I think you might be the same Brian teaching me) c2_beer.gif

 

Yeah, thats me. At first I couldn't put the username with the real name, but Mike helped me out. Hope all is well!

post #11 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrian View Post

Yeah, thats me. At first I couldn't put the username with the real name, but Mike helped me out. Hope all is well!

Great.  You should be getting a new video from me soon ... and hopefully this time I will have shown some progress!

post #12 of 35
Thanks for taking the time to post, Dave, Chuck, et all. I loved the DVDs, and am looking forward to learning more from you guys over the years.
post #13 of 35

I agree with all of the 5SK theories other than "weight forward". Our research (pro-stance . com) over 7 years with 10,000 swings of all levels of player from beginners to multiple Major champions proved that the most efficient way to swing a golf club is with a COG that moves straight back and through breaking into the left heel pre impact. Quite happy to share. Where can I get the DVD?

post #14 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_wedzik View Post

 

Key #5 Clubface Control

A very simple understanding of the true ball flight laws and how to implement them to play the best golf possible. No disrespect meant to any human but I will thank Trackman, Flightscope, and the like for this one. We are comfortable with players starting the ball left OR right within the 5SK system... just as we are comfortable with players hitting up on drivers (in fact we often recommend it).

 

 

 

Now while Dave and Erik both have been teaching me to hit a push draw more consistently, that has been more to do with making my path correct than being "you must hit it this way". Back over a year ago when I told them that I didn't care if my ball leaked a little either left or right they responded with "okay" not, you must draw the ball.

 

I have been very fortunate to spend a few days with them this summer.  Both are good guys as well as good instructors. 

post #15 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCraig View Post

I agree with all of the 5SK theories other than "weight forward". Where can I get the DVD?

 

http://thesandtrap.com/t/59860/purestrike-5-simple-keys-dvds-now-available

 

You can read more about it here:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

 

I'm not sure you understand what the "Weight Forward" key is. It's at impact, and our data is really, really good on this. Send me a PM if you aren't sure what I mean.

post #16 of 35

I have not seen much of the criticism regarding the "copy" of S&T, in fact most of what I have seen has been very positive. Saying something is a copy of S&T is silly if only because S&T has evolved itself, now S&T2.0, or whatever they are calling it now. 

 

It is never easy to put something out there. It is always easier to sit on the sidelines and throw peanuts from the peanut gallery. Once you have something out there, there will always be haters. You should be proud that you and your team are willing to put something out there and defend it.

post #17 of 35
Whenever different people study the same thing, if they're worth their salt, their results will look similar. One of them has to come first, though, and thus comparisons are inevitable.

-- Random thought.
post #18 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_wedzik View Post


I named my academy "Golf Evolution" precisely because evolution is a constant and ongoing process, not a stake in the ground saying "we've arrived at the perfect swing."



This line is great, and I wish more golf instructors had the ambition that the 5SK guys do. Good thread.
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