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Weight Forward - Using SwingCatalyst and SAM Balance Lab to Explain Pressure Throughout the Swing

post #1 of 130
Thread Starter 

Because of the work we have done in putting together the PureStrike 5 Simple Keys® system we have been investigating the concept of "weight" and "pressure" - where it is, where it's going, how quickly any shifts occur, and more - for several years now. We began with simple bathroom scales to measure weight in "static" positions and by observing the motion of the needles (which is delayed) with high speed video, and moved on to spend time testing on the AboutGolf Force Plate System, SAM Balance Lab and also, starting in January 2012 when it was revealed to the public, more in-depth studies with the SwingCatalyst.

 

As you start reading this post, you may ask "what's the point?" Or "I've heard you say somewhere that you need to feel more weight forward in the backswing or transition"… And you'd be right about the second. So isn't this just semantics? No, it's NOT.

 

First, we take reporting correct data to golfers seriously. We realize that it goes directly to our credibility as instructors (as well as people for that matter :-D) and the point with any of this research is never to "be right"… it is to report and explain our findings exactly as they are, and then apply what we know to better help golfers improve. Nothing more.

 

Second, weight forward at impact is a commonality of the game's greatest players… weight forward throughout the swing is not. 5SK is built only upon the things that the game's greatest players have in common. Since everyone has different feels that work for them, incorrect data or "bad" data can work against players quite easily. For example, if we told a golfer that research is showing top players with pressure and weight left throughout a swing, it could cause him to overdo certain things VERY easily, to his detriment.

 

There are two videos linked to below. The first looks at the swings of Suzann Pettersen and Grant Waite as they hit shots on the SwingCatalyst system. In it we cover how the pressure changes throughout their swings and how "looks" aren't always the same as "reality"… as well as some of the pitfalls that can be encountered using pressure plates and video (and how to avoid them :-D).  The second video is a clip from the PureStrike 5 Simple Keys® DVD which was shot in January 2012.

 

 

post #2 of 130

Nice video guys.  Really cool to see Grants numbers.

post #3 of 130

Some of the other videos/pictures that we have seen make a lot of sense now. a1_smile.gif

post #4 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrian View Post

Some of the other videos/pictures that we have seen make a lot of sense now. a1_smile.gif

Yes. Yes they do.
post #5 of 130

Grant's trace is as smooth and elegant as his swing. Amazing!

post #6 of 130

I was in a discussion over at Richie's forum discussing parts of this issue. The logic of the poster there was that your arms and clubshaft are heavy enough to cause the weight distribution to move to the right in the backswing and it is not act of the right leg straightening that causes the pressure to increase on the right. The only way to counter the weight of your arms and clubhead is to move your hips toward the target (ala Troy Matteson) to counterweight your arms. Theory being that even if Dave/Grant/Suzann had not straightened their leg the weight would still move to the right.

 

 

I wonder what you guys think of this comment?

 

post #7 of 130

This is great information.  Love seeing teachers wanting to continue to learn.  I thought those 3 golfers (Petterson, Waite, and that bald guy g2_eek.gif) were perfect examples to show the slight differences within the commonalities.  Petterson all the way down near 80% forward at impact vs. Waite at 95% and Dave is in the high 80's.

 

One question though:  Dave makes a point to say that 80-95% is the range of good players while hitting an iron.  Was he just filling time there, or is there a discernable difference when hitting woods?

post #8 of 130

Re mchepp's comment -- I think it would be interesting to record two swings, one with a club in hand and one without and see if the pressure differentials change a little. 

post #9 of 130

First off, great job Dave and Erik!  Thank you for putting this together and spending all that time researching/testing.  Also thanks to Grant for spending time with us at Swing Catalyst, gotta say that was a fun day!  Not only does Grant's swing look awesome but his traces are super smooth.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post

I was in a discussion over at Richie's forum discussing parts of this issue. The logic of the poster there was that your arms and clubshaft are heavy enough to cause the weight distribution to move to the right in the backswing and it is not act of the right leg straightening that causes the pressure to increase on the right. The only way to counter the weight of your arms and clubhead is to move your hips toward the target (ala Troy Matteson) to counterweight your arms. Theory being that even if Dave/Grant/Suzann had not straightened their leg the weight would still move to the right.

 

 

I wonder what you guys think of this comment?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

Re mchepp's comment -- I think it would be interesting to record two swings, one with a club in hand and one without and see if the pressure differentials change a little. 

 

Erik can probably elaborate or explain better than I can but these machines measure pressure, not weight.  Remember weight is a static measurement.  So club or no club pressure is increasing right because the rear leg decrease in flex.  

 

These two pics would disprove what that poster was talking about Mike because the arms and club are still to the right and the pressure is left.

 

 

 

 

btw maybe slightly off topic but love seeing Grant and Dave's swings from overhead.  

post #10 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

 

These two pics would disprove what that poster was talking about Mike because the arms and club are still to the right and the pressure is left.

 

 

Good point, Mike.

 

I particularly like seeing where the pressure in the front foot is located when the downswing commences. The ball of the left foot really lights up red. 

 

A really important video that I think will help a lot of people.

post #11 of 130

Mike, if Grant and Dave don't mind, could you please post the raw HD video of Grant's 4-view on the Sand Trap YouTube channel. I NEED those for my models file! Cheers.

 

Also, am I correct in thinking that the pressure and weight distribution are the same at the three static points* in the swing -- i.e. address, top of the backswing and finish position? If so, how many people would guess by looking at him that this guy has 65 percent of his weight right?

 

 --

 

* (Realize that there may not be a truly static P4 as and the arms and club may still be traveling to the top as the hips start forward. But I imagine the two must still be pretty close at this point?) 


Edited by Stretch - 2/21/13 at 3:04am
post #12 of 130

Appreciate the video.

 

I noticed this about Grant's transition, too, in watching "some other DVD.". He seems to almost settle into the end of his backswing when he immediately begins applying pressure with the ball of his front foot - an aggressive move, and one to which I must aspire to improve.

 

Thank you, 5SKeys. This is great analysis.

post #13 of 130
A huge thank you must go out to Dave and Erik for sharing this video on the SwingCatalyst pressure plate system, and mapping it to the video of Wedzik, Petterson, and Waite's model golf swings.

First, this is a very helpful video, and filled with quality swing nuggets of information. And it definitely identified where some of the confusion was found between the data presented by the 5SK video in comparison to the S&T 2.0 video. Thank you for helping me understand why there was conflicting data being reported by both camps.

Secondly, I believe this video truly demonstrated the power of using a combination of technologies to build better golfers; SwingCatalyst (pressure plate system), Flightscope (launch monitor), Analyzer Pro (instructional video editing software). It is amazing what we can learn from this type of analysis. And I'm excited to get this type of data on my own swing.

Lastly, I really want to express thanks to the Golf Evolution team. Having the integrity to share your findings with the golf community here at TheSandTrap is a trait that I think is the most honorable. This is public domain. And you are not hiding behind a vail on this SwingCatalyst data - or keeping your findings as your own 'instructional IP'. You've put your findings out there for the masses to see which is very much appreciated.

The Golf Evolution team that I've come to know over the last year is one I'd say isn't afraid to embrace technology. Isn't afraid to embrace change. And will find ways to incorporate their findings into their instruction, and communicate it to the golf world. Huge props for this. Please continue with your efforts. You are building better golfers every day.
post #14 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post

I was in a discussion over at Richie's forum discussing parts of this issue. The logic of the poster there was that your arms and clubshaft are heavy enough to cause the weight distribution to move to the right in the backswing and it is not act of the right leg straightening that causes the pressure to increase on the right. The only way to counter the weight of your arms and clubhead is to move your hips toward the target (ala Troy Matteson) to counterweight your arms. Theory being that even if Dave/Grant/Suzann had not straightened their leg the weight would still move to the right.

 

 

I wonder what you guys think of this comment?

 

Not totally discounting the weight of the arms but in looking at photos like this I have to consider it's, far more so, something else. The arms are still "about" much to the right as they would be during the backswing yet are nowhere near enough to offset the dynamic pressure shift at this point in the swing. We will do a lot more along these lines in the very near future on our SwingCatalyst.


post #15 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

Mike, if Grant and Dave don't mind, could you please post the raw HD video of Grant's 4-view on the Sand Trap YouTube channel. I NEED those for my models file! Cheers.

Also, am I correct in thinking that the pressure and weight distribution are the same at the three static points* in the swing -- i.e. address, top of the backswing and finish position? If so, how many people would guess by looking at him that this guy has 65 percent of his weight right?



* (Realize that there may not be a truly static P4 as and the arms and club may still be traveling to the top as the hips start forward. But I imagine the two must still be pretty close at this point?) 

It seems that way Stretch but it's still quite dynamic in relation to a posed static position. Quite a difference between these numbers when posed vs. mid swing. And, yes, at a glance it would still be very difficult to call that 65 pressure right a1_smile.gif....in fact we discussed the posterior pic with Grant for a bit and we were all saying something very similar!
post #16 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post

I was in a discussion over at Richie's forum discussing parts of this issue. The logic of the poster there was that your arms and clubshaft are heavy enough to cause the weight distribution to move to the right in the backswing and it is not act of the right leg straightening that causes the pressure to increase on the right. The only way to counter the weight of your arms and clubhead is to move your hips toward the target (ala Troy Matteson) to counterweight your arms. Theory being that even if Dave/Grant/Suzann had not straightened their leg the weight would still move to the right.

 

As Dave said, that's largely bunk. I do think that weight can shift about 5% due to the arms and torso, but if you think about the geometry of the arms - the trail arm is all the way back at the start and actually moves forward during the swing. It isn't enough alone to offset the entire left arm moving backwards, but it offsets it some - it's not like BOTH arms are adding weight. More like the lead arm is adding weight towards the trail side and the trail arm is moving more towards the center.

 

And the weight of the club is almost nothing. It's not even worth considering.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

Petterson all the way down near 80% forward at impact vs. Waite at 95% and Dave is in the high 80's.

 

Not to pick on Dave or Suzann, but notice how much of her motion forward occurs late (she does get to 95%+), and even Dave's finish is a bit later. Notice too how smooth Grant's trace is.

 


Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

One question though:  Dave makes a point to say that 80-95% is the range of good players while hitting an iron.  Was he just filling time there, or is there a discernable difference when hitting woods?

 

They're not on the ground. We specifically meant with drivers or anything else teed up. You can have low point behind the golf ball (in fact, we encourage it), so you won't put as much pressure forward as you almost "need" to with an iron.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

Mike, if Grant and Dave don't mind, could you please post the raw HD video of Grant's 4-view on the Sand Trap YouTube channel. I NEED those for my models file! Cheers.

 

We'll probably make them available at some point. We have a few we could use.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

Also, am I correct in thinking that the pressure and weight distribution are the same at the three static points* in the swing -- i.e. address, top of the backswing and finish position? If so, how many people would guess by looking at him that this guy has 65 percent of his weight right?

 

It's not static at A4. When Grant posed at A4, he was about 47L/53T (lead/trail).

 

And it's subtle, but you'll notice in transition with Grant and Suzann (a bit less so with Dave, but it's still there if we look at the raw video):

 

1) At about A3 or A3.2 or so, the pressure right hits its first max.

2) From A3.25 to ~A4 (varies slightly by player), as the player simply lifts his arms slightly (most good players are 90% done with their hip and shoulder turns by A3), the pressure settles a little and gets closer to 50/50 or you could say closer to his actual "weight" measurement.

3) From ~A4 to ~A4.25 to ~A4.5 the golfer will subtly push off with their right foot, their left knee will slide horizontally forward, their core will slide their hips forward, and you'll see another little spike in pressure on the trail side.

 

I've illustrated this in a graphic. 1, 2, and 3 are highlighted.

 

 

 

And notice how little movement is required (particularly between the third and fourth picture) in some of these cases (and note that even at the max Grant is 59 Trail):

 

post #17 of 130
Soaking it all in, soaking it all in. No questions ATM. Good stuff. Kudos for posting the "proof." That's unfortunately rare (probably since most people know their instruction wouldn't hold weight ... err pressure?).
post #18 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

1) At about A3 or A3.2 or so, the pressure right hits its first max.

2) From A3.25 to ~A4 (varies slightly by player), as the player simply lifts his arms slightly (most good players are 90% done with their hip and shoulder turns by A3), the pressure settles a little and gets closer to 50/50 or you could say closer to his actual "weight" measurement.

3) From ~A4 to ~A4.25 to ~A4.5 the golfer will subtly push off with their right foot, their left knee will slide horizontally forward, their core will slide their hips forward, and you'll see another little spike in pressure on the trail side.

 

I've illustrated this in a graphic. 1, 2, and 3 are highlighted.

 

 

 

And notice how little movement is required (particularly between the third and fourth picture) in some of these cases (and note that even at the max Grant is 59 Trail):

 

 

This is really awesome stuff here. The illustrations with color are a really cool way to see what is happening. Thanks.

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