Embedded Ball Relief Question

[JDgolf]

Hi,

Let's say your ball is embedded in the general area behind a tree interfering with your stance or swing. To my understanding, you cant use the embedded ball rule and get a one club drop possibly freeing you from the tree.  I get that.

I had a situation like that and the ball was completely embedded in mud. I didn't want relief from the tree, just relief from the lie, and chip out into the fairway. 

Are we not even allowed to do that that?

Edited April 18, 2019 by JDgolf

[iacas]

If your ball is embedded in the general area you're entitled to relief (assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower).

If you can chip out sideways, then the ball is still embedded. If it's possible to reasonably play a stroke in some direction, you are entitled to relief, and then after relief is taken, can play in any direction.

But why would you want to just chip out if you get relief? You could… but why?

[Asheville]

26 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Hi,

Let's say your ball is embedded in the general area behind a tree interfering with your stance or swing. To my understanding, you cant use the embedded ball rule and get a one club drop possibly freeing you from the tree.  I get that.

I had a situation like that and the ball was completely embedded in mud. I didn't want relief from the tree, just relief from the lie, and chip out into the fairway. 

Are we not even allowed to do that that?

The Rule says, as you seem to know:

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area: Relief under Rule 16.3b is not allowed:

When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

This is a common bit of fine print with many free relief situations.

[Missouri Swede]

6 minutes ago, Asheville said:

The Rule says, as you seem to know:

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area: Relief under Rule 16.3b is not allowed:

When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

This is a common bit of fine print with many free relief situations.

Does this prohibit relief only if no shot is reasonable?

So if I would punch out sideways (were the ball not embedded) from that location, does that allow me to take relief?

[JDgolf]

22 minutes ago, Asheville said:

The Rule says, as you seem to know:

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area: Relief under Rule 16.3b is not allowed:

When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

This is a common bit of fine print with many free relief situations.

The penalty is too harsh IMO.

I'm having formatting problems with my phone, I apologise.

Edited April 18, 2019 by JDgolf

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

The penalty is too harsh IMO.

There's no "penalty" here.

29 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Does this prohibit relief only if no shot is reasonable?

So if I would punch out sideways (were the ball not embedded) from that location, does that allow me to take relief?

Correct. If you have ANY reasonable shot, you're entitled to take relief.

[David in FL]

30 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Does this prohibit relief only if no shot is reasonable?

So if I would punch out sideways (were the ball not embedded) from that location, does that allow me to take relief?

Yes.  Just because you don’t have a perfect shot, doesn’t mean that some reasonable shot wouldn’t be available to you.

A punch out would be reasonable and therefore, entitled to relief.

 Edited to add that @iacas beat me to it.

Edited April 18, 2019 by David in FL

[Missouri Swede]

8 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Yes.  Just because you don’t have a perfect shot, doesn’t mean that some reasonable shot wouldn’t be available to you.

A punch out would be reasonable and therefore, entitled to relief.

 Edited to add that @iacas beat me to it.

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

There's no "penalty" here.

Correct. If you have ANY reasonable shot, you're entitled to take relief.

Okay, good. @JDgolf and @Asheville seemed to be implying that any interference by the tree prevented taking relief.

[billchao]

7 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Okay, good. @JDgolf and @Asheville seemed to be implying that any interference by the tree prevented taking relief.

That's not what @Asheville posted.

1 hour ago, Asheville said:

When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

If your ball is embedded and under a bush or something where you can't make a reasonable shot if it wasn't embedded, you don't get relief. There are plenty of options if your ball is behind a tree or if something might interfere with your stance or swing. They may not be in the direction you prefer, but being able to chip backwards or sideways is still a reasonable stroke, so you're allowed to take relief from a ball embedded in that situation.

[Rulesman]

Just to reinforce iacas's point.

If a chip sideways is the reasonable shot you would have played if the ball had not been embedded and you drop in the relief area, you do not have to play a chip.

If you now have a good lie and view, you may play a wood to the green if you wish.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Rulesman

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Just to reinforce iacas's point.

If a chip sideways is the reasonable shot you would have played if the ball had not been embedded and you drop in the relief area, you do not have to play a chip.

If you now have a good lie and view, you may play a wood to the green if you wish.

Another way to say this, once you have completed taking relief within the rules, you're basically starting over.  You make your decisions based only on the current position of the ball, not on the (completely legal) drop that brought you to that position.

[klineka]

I have a question about this section of the rule

Does this mean that if it's a wet day and I hit a dead straight drive down the middle of the fairway, watch it land in the middle of the fairway but then get up there and can't find the ball because it presumably plugged, that I would be entitled to a free drop since I would be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in an abnormal course condition being plugged?

Quote

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in or on an abnormal course condition on the course, the player may use this relief option instead of taking stroke-and-distance relief:

• The player may take relief under Rule 16.1b, c or d, using the estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the abnormal course condition on the course as the spot of the ball for purposes of finding the nearest point of complete relief.

• Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:

  • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.

  • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b)

But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in or on an abnormal course condition and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distanceStroke and Distance: The procedure and penalty when a player takes relief under Rules 17, 18 or 19 by playing a ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6).

 

[iacas]

@klineka is an embedded ball an ACC?

[klineka]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

@klineka is an embedded ball an ACC?

Ah, it appears not.

I just didn't keep scrolling down on rule 16 to the embedded ball section. 

---

FYI for anyone else that might come across this, the 4 ACCs are

Animal Hole, Ground Under Repair, Immovable Obstruction, and Temporary Water

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

I have a question about this section of the rule

Does this mean that if it's a wet day and I hit a dead straight drive down the middle of the fairway, watch it land in the middle of the fairway but then get up there and can't find the ball because it presumably plugged, that I would be entitled to a free drop since I would be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in an abnormal course condition being plugged?

You'd have to look at the definition of abnormal course condition.  An embedded ball doesn't qualify on its own, but a ball embedded in temporary water could.

Quote

Abnormal Course Condition

An animal hole, ground under repair, an immovable obstruction, or temporary water.

 

[David in FL]

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You'd have to look at the definition of abnormal course condition.  An embedded ball doesn't qualify on its own, but a ball embedded in temporary water could.

 

It’s also worth noting that a hole caused by any animal is now considered an ACC.  Previously only that caused by a burrowing animal so qualified.  A significant change...

[JDgolf]

Thank you guys.

[JDgolf]

But I've given it some thought and still don't agree.

 

"When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the 
stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke
because of where the ball lies in a bush"

 

This doesn't imply a completely unplayable ball. And let's say it did. What exactly are you talking advantage of by unplugging it? You still have to take an unplayable. It makes no sense to add this exception.

Edited April 18, 2019 by JDgolf