What Determines the Cost of Golf?

[Bucki1968]

33 minutes ago, criley4way said:

I have long thought that courses need to differentiate and focus on segments. I will pay for quality conditions and pace of play (also active management of play). I also will pay for options of tee boxes so I can bring friends who may be of different skill levels. I also like. Well stocked snack shop with more than beer and hot dogs.

I agree with this 100% I've always thought that courses should market to different players. Easier courses for golfers who are not as skilled as others. More relaxed for the beginners etc. Then graduate to tougher courses so that the pace of play stays reasonable. Although in the long run it's always gonna come down too getting the most rounds on your course per day. I too am willing to pay more for those type of options. 

[criley4way]

27 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

Although in the long run it's always gonna come down too getting the most rounds on your course per day.

That is WRONG!! This is a sales point of view and possibly a top line thought. Ultimately it comes down to profit!! If I can sell 1 round a day for $10,000 with no labor cost that is better than 100 rounds  at $100 with all the support costs. 

For players with means I have always thought that a well maintained course, firm fast greens, nice bunkers with a 12-15 gap and a guaranteed 4 hr pace of play would be a winner.

[Patch]

My criteria as a player is I will pay what ever the playing fees are, as long as the situation warrants that cost. This is especially true on road trips, vacations, and local get togethers with friends.  

Now, when out and about, if I think I paid too much for the playing conditions the course offered, then I probably will never return to that course. 

[chspeed]

8 hours ago, criley4way said:

guaranteed 4 hr pace of play would be a winner.

Interesting idea, I like it. But how could you guarantee that?

[criley4way]

11 hours ago, chspeed said:

Interesting idea, I like it. But how could you guarantee that?

I always imagined a plan like:

$50 rate

guaranteed 4:15 min round

if over 4:15 from 1st hole a $25 credit

if over 4:45 the round is free.

have a starter to ensure that times get off by their time. This shouldn’t be an issue if you have enough space between times

 

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, criley4way said:

I always imagined a plan like:

$50 rate

guaranteed 4:15 min round

if over 4:15 from 1st hole a $25 credit

if over 4:45 the round is free.

have a starter to ensure that times get off by their time. This shouldn’t be an issue if you have enough space between times

You would have to mandate that courses require a handicap level to play. You get a group of 4 hackers out there and no matter how hard a starter pushes them you'd be lucky to get a sub 4:15 round. Then you are basically saying the course owes everyone behind them money back because 4 people can't play faster! Yea, that's absurd.

[Bucki1968]

22 hours ago, criley4way said:

That is WRONG!! This is a sales point of view and possibly a top line thought. Ultimately it comes down to profit!! If I can sell 1 round a day for $10,000 with no labor cost that is better than 100 rounds  at $100 with all the support costs. 

For players with means I have always thought that a well maintained course, firm fast greens, nice bunkers with a 12-15 gap and a guaranteed 4 hr pace of play would be a winner.

Yes I understand your point, but here in Florida (especially in the summer) you need to get those rounds to keep some cash flow. So prices go down in order to increase rounds. Even the resort/upscale courses lower rates dramatically to get some revenue. That being said, they still charge a higher rate and probably do less rounds so the course does not get same amount of play. Every course in this area fights hard to get those rounds in the summer. But , to your point, the course where I used to work had a much higher green fee (in the summer) did less rounds and still generated the same revenue that we would if we lowered the price and did more rounds. So we kept the green fee higher and just did less rounds.  

[criley4way]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

You would have to mandate that courses require a handicap level to play. You get a group of 4 hackers out there and no matter how hard a starter pushes them you'd be lucky to get a sub 4:15 round. Then you are basically saying the course owes everyone behind them money back because 4 people can't play faster! Yea, that's absurd.

You are correct that the starter can not push a group of high handicaps. But the marshals can and just because people have higher handicaps doesn't mean they play slowly. I would advocate for the European philosophy. The course allows you to play tees (a <10 hcp CAN play the Blues or forward, only <4 can play the championship) and if you are our of place first, you get a warning, next you are asked to pick up and catch up to the group in front of you, last you are asked to return at a slower time where you will not interfere with POP.

I can hear the argument that people wouldn't put up with it but the concept is to cater to people who want excellent conditions, predictable and fast play and understand the expectation.

I often played in front of a senior women's group and they were constantly on top of me even though I was playing at a 4hr pace. No one in their foursomes broken 100 but they would ALWAYS play <4 hrs.

[dennyjones]

1 hour ago, criley4way said:

You are correct that the starter can not push a group of high handicaps. But the marshals can and just because people have higher handicaps doesn't mean they play slowly. I would advocate for the European philosophy. The course allows you to play tees (a <10 hcp CAN play the Blues or forward, only <4 can play the championship) and if you are our of place first, you get a warning, next you are asked to pick up and catch up to the group in front of you, last you are asked to return at a slower time where you will not interfere with POP.

I can hear the argument that people wouldn't put up with it but the concept is to cater to people who want excellent conditions, predictable and fast play and understand the expectation.

I like your idea but the almighty dollar rules in almost everything we do.     I've played with people that say, "I've paid my $$, I'm going to enjoy the experience, I don't care how long it takes".    I no longer play golf with them.  

Quote

I often played in front of a senior women's group and they were constantly on top of me even though I was playing at a 4hr pace. No one in their foursomes broken 100 but they would ALWAYS play <4 hrs.

Last year I arrived at a course at almost sunrise.   I asked to go off first because I can play fast (little over 2 hrs) by myself.   I was told the threesome of ladies which were members would be in front of me.   As I paused, when told this, the pro told me, "Don't worry, you won't catch them".   After the second hole, I never waited again.   It's all about playing ready golf.

[criley4way]

3 hours ago, dennyjones said:

I like your idea but the almighty dollar rules in almost everything we do.     I've played with people that say, "I've paid my $$, I'm going to enjoy the experience, I don't care how long it takes".    I no longer play golf with them.  

Last year I arrived at a course at almost sunrise.   I asked to go off first because I can play fast (little over 2 hrs) by myself.   I was told the threesome of ladies which were members would be in front of me.   As I paused, when told this, the pro told me, "Don't worry, you won't catch them".   After the second hole, I never waited again.   It's all about playing ready golf.

Denny,

People always say it is about the money. I agree it is about the money. 

The key here is to market/target to people who:

• Value POP
• Appreciate high quality course conditions
• Play frequently (kind of like a country club)
• Are willing to pay

If these people exist (an i think they do) then one should be able to set a price that will maximize profit not Revenue. Current thinking says that cost is fixed, thus maximize revenue. I am suggesting that the cost can be adjusted to a set of conditions to maximize profit. If you try to fill more tee times this group will not show up, the people left are MUCH more price sensitive and thus profit will decrease. The decrease in profit leads to decrease in maintenance and jammed tee times...

[Patch]

10 hours ago, criley4way said:

I always imagined a plan like:

$50 rate

guaranteed 4:15 min round

if over 4:15 from 1st hole a $25 credit

if over 4:45 the round is free.

have a starter to ensure that times get off by their time. This shouldn’t be an issue if you have enough space between times

 

My thought is, if the course spaces out group's starting times, they have fewer golfers, which means less revenue. 

If the course employs a course marshal to keep all players at the 4 hour pace, this will generate pissed off slower golfers, who will move to a more appreciative golf course. Again, fewer golfers means less tevenue.

If the course requires handicaps, and restricts the higher handicaps from playing, to keep pace of play at the 4 hour mark, their green fees might be too high to pay for those eligable to play the course. Again, fewer golfers, means less revenue.

Less revenue usually means higher green fees.

Except for the private courses, and some of semi pravate courses, most golf courses can't afford to lose any golfer's pocket book.  

[RemyM]

On 5/3/2019 at 8:31 AM, Bucki1968 said:

But , to your point, the course where I used to work had a much higher green fee (in the summer) did less rounds and still generated the same revenue that we would if we lowered the price and did more rounds. So we kept the green fee higher and just did less rounds.  

Exactly!  This is what most people who complain about price to play don't understand.  A smart course operator would rather have 30,000 rounds at $40 then 40,000 rounds at $30.  Same revenue but you should be able to provide a better experience with the higher price and fewer rounds.

[FLOG4]

I read all the answers here....and the vital point is not addressed. What is the motivation of the owner? Profit is not always the motivation. Many an owner of golf courses have thrown profit out the window based on their desire to own a specific property. Many have bought and built golf courses because they couldn't get in to certain private golf courses....The manner by which those courses are handled has nothing to do with profit. It is their big play toy and screw everybody else..They set the rules of who/what/where/why there is play in their playground....

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/30/2019 at 1:27 AM, Patch said:

I once golfed 9 holes with our course supt. During our round I asked him what it would take to spruce up the practice bunker. Clean out the weeds, and add some sand. He kind of laughed and said "sand cost $40 a ton, and it doesn't take much sand to make a ton".. 

 . 

I live in NE Ohio, which is now "overbuilt" for golf! So, over time, quite a few golf courses have gone out of business. When a course gets in financial difficulty the first things to go are the bunkers! They are expensive to construct and maintain. Mill Creek GC (36 holes) just spent close to $400K over the past 2 years to refurbish all their bunkers! 

On 5/3/2019 at 7:44 AM, saevel25 said:

You would have to mandate that courses require a handicap level to play. You get a group of 4 hackers out there and no matter how hard a starter pushes them you'd be lucky to get a sub 4:15 round. Then you are basically saying the course owes everyone behind them money back because 4 people can't play faster! Yea, that's absurd.

Good point! Last year we went out to play a course that for whatever reason had the nines reversed that day! So we head out to #10 tee and wait, and wait, and wait some more while two foursomes of absolute fossils teed off in front of us! I don't mean to be unkind, but these guys were seriously old. To the point where it could be questioned whether they should even be on a golf course! 

After the first foursome hit toward the green, the second foursome teed off, drove out to their balls, and dropped anchor! They might have hit their drives 125 and had 150 to the green, but they held their fire until the prior group cleared. And the prior group took their damn sweet time on the green! 

After 20+ minutes I was seriously pissed and told the group to follow me back to the starter. I told him that I was not about to take 6 or 7 hours to play a round of golf behind the tortoises we would be behind on the back nine! If we couldn't get out on the front, I was going to the desk for a rain check! He checked his sheet and, whattaya know, there was a gap before the outing, or whatever it was, was due to tee off. The starter said, "If you can get out there right now, you can go." I said, "We're outta here! Thank you!"

And we actually caught up to the second group of tortoises on 17 and 18! They took 4+ hours to play nine holes!