Eureka Golf Swing

[ChetlovesMer]

2 minutes ago, StuM said:

I'm with you on that one.

Okay, yeah. No natural skills. But we are both devilishly handsome. 🤪

[StuM]

4 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

I'll try to answer why I will not be trying this.  Specifically it has to do with "muscle memory".  I have 2 teaching pros I listen to.  Both have seen me swing personally and know where my game is at currently.  I am working to incorporate a minor change in my swing and to stop and try something totally different would impede my progress.  My goal in practice is to make the intended action the "Natural tendency".  If I spent a week trying this method I would gradually destroy the muscle memory I have been working to create based on a personalized plan.   Last fall I changed my grip and it took several months before that felt "Normal".   I would hate to arbitrarily change things and risk messing up what my teaching pros are telling me to focus on.

[saevel25]

52 minutes ago, StuM said:

If I spent a week trying this method I would gradually destroy the muscle memory I have been working to create based on a personalized plan.   Last fall I changed my grip and it took several months before that felt "Normal".   I would hate to arbitrarily change things and risk messing up what my teaching pros are telling me to focus on.

Yep, because you just can't try a swing out and have it stick. This isn't something like, lets try this out on the range once. Any swing change, requires hours of work to override existing swing tendencies. 

So, for those saying, "Just try it". That only works for someone who isn't already actively working on something with an instructor, or maybe new to golf. Unless those working with an instructor that they think they are not seeing improvement with their instructor. Otherwise, it will only be rude to the instructor and possibly damaging to the progress the golfer has already made to "just try it". 

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

So, for those saying, "Just try it". That only works for someone who isn't already actively working on something with an instructor, or maybe new to golf. Unless those working with an instructor that they think they are not seeing improvement with their instructor. Otherwise, it will only be rude to the instructor and possibly damaging to the progress the golfer has already made to "just try it". 

I wish I could upvote this comment more than once. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by ChetlovesMer

[imsys0042]

28 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I wish I could upvote this comment more than once. 

Got your back, I upvoted it too.   It's 100% correct.

[iacas]

I'm going to try very hard to keep my replies short. Where I respond to a point someone else already said, it will mostly be because I feel it's important to re-iterate it. That said, I'm probably going to fail. I'm not very brief sometimes.

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

One reason I don't like having discussions etc over new things is the complete negativety of the 'experts'  here (or similar)

I like the subtle slam at putting "experts" in quotes. I am an expert. Believe it or don't, but here's the thing: you didn't respond to anything I actually said in talking about those two videos. Not one thing. You've glossed over the issues I raised entirely.

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Everyone says it won't work here,  he's talking nonsense there or it BS about this and that.

False, and true.

To the "Everyone says it won't work here" bit, I ask you to go back and find anyone (let alone "everyone") saying such a thing.

To the "talking nonsense" or "BS" stuff… that's the closest you've come to talking about what I said in my post. It IS BS or nonsense to "measure how open his hips are" from a 2D video. Complete nonsense or BS. Yes. Provably. Factually.

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

It would be far better if instead of seeing a 'glass half empty'  to actually try the concept.  Go on a range and hit a bucket.  That's what I initially did and was pleasantly surprised. I don't know the ins and out of Jargon like many do.

I don't need to, and I'm trying to do something else with my swing.

My post simply detailed a few things:

• The things he says you do in his swing that he doesn't do.
• The false "measurements" he did in the Adam Scott video.

Like I said awhile ago, his swing seems to boil down to "set up open/square, and then swing to the right." But he contradicts himself by saying that the ball will go straight, and yet the target line is not out to the right. And so on.

But you didn't want to address those things.

I could lie and say "yeah, I went on a range and "tried" the swing," and apparently you'd be like "oh, great. Good for you." But I don't know that you even are doing what you think you're doing, because feel ain't real. Maybe, like many golfers, you aimed well to the right and came over it and swung left. Maybe the simple idea of feeling open got you into a better position, and then sensing the target out to the right, you were able to swing that way a bit. Good. I teach a lot of lessons like that, because people tend to aim right.

But the swing seems to boil down to "aim left, swing right" and much of what else he says… he does not appear to be doing in actuality. And I have a problem with that.

I never said you should. I've said "if it works for you, great."

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

I'm a retired sports therapist.  When new techniques were talked about we'd discuss and try it. If it showed a better outcome than the current treatment,  then we'd introduce the new one.

Far and away different than golf. You wouldn't tell a struggling PGA Tour player "here, try this wholesale change to your swing." No, you'd address whatever single highest priority "piece" they need to fix and move on from there.

"Trying" a sports therapy technique is a different animal altogether.

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Mention new golf swings on here and it's like the Devil is present and needs purging.

You won't find a single post like that.

12 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

It works hugely for me.  One huge difference is where the ball strikes the club face.  It used to be close to the hosel (a few sh@nks) but now the strike has moved half inch to the centre. 

Probably because your left foot is pulled back so you can feel open, so you have a bit more room. And like I've said… good for you.

10 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Long reply.  But you've never answered the question of why people see fit to be negative from the outset instead of,  'that's interesting,  illl give it a try". 

There's no need to give it a try. You're stuck on that, but that's a silly thing to say to someone like me.

If someone says "try this to hit a high draw: swing way left of your target line (for a righty)." We know that won't work - physics tells us that. We don't need to "try" it.

The guy in the videos said he did several things he does not do. He made several comments about "sustaining the line of compression" (doesn't happen, the clubhead is moving in an arc in 3D), about how open he gets (he doesn't), he "measured" things in 2D video… etc. I don't need to "try" the swing to know those things are false.

10 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Bit like this Eureka Guy,  Johnson is a PGA teaching pro,  not some schmuck off the street.  Maybe,  just maybe he had something but as most other experts nearly always slag it off without putting club to ball. 

I'm a PGA professional. I've been on the Best Young Teachers in America list, I've won my section award for Teacher of the Year, I own a GEARS, a SAM, a FlightScope, a SwingCatalyst, a Capto, a BodiTrak, and a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. I have a background in the sciences, too, and I understand quite a bit.

I'm not a "schmuck off the street" either. I'm an expert, no quotation marks needed.

9 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

You are right in many ways however,  if I had a Pound for every Buddy that's had 1-2-1 lessons with a Pro that works well when he's there,  then after actually going to a REAL course and it all goes tits up..... I'd be a very rich man.

Because people don't understand how to practice.

My students — not all, because some of mine don't know how, either — get better. That's why I keep having more and more.

9 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

It sounds nonsensical but you never know,  I might give it a go and report back how crap it is (or good). 

No, it doesn't "sound" nonsensical. Many of the things he says, "measures," says he does, etc. ARE nonsensical.

9 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Would you give any credence to a new car review whereby the author states its a rubbish vehicle although I've never actually sat in it let alone drove it. 😉

I don't need to sit in a car if another expert has thoroughly reviewed it and says "it's crap."

Many people here take me to be that expert. And for you, a newer person, I documented everything.

But you completely ignored the content of my big post, and just immediately got defensive and started repeating "you have to try it out!"

No, I don't.

8 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Interesting.  But I would not slag it off without trying what he says.

If he says 2+2=π, do you have to "try" out his golf swing, or can you just say "no, that's wrong."

Because many of the things he said are just factually wrong. And that's all I really commented on. If you want to take that as "slagging it off," then so be it, but I suspect if I tried to tell you 2+2=π you'd tell me I was wrong too.

8 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

Exactly!   Don't knock it till you try it... Seems to be the ethos in every walk of life except when it comes to golf swing experts. 

Or any field where facts can be discerned…

You can draw the ball back to the target by swinging left (as a righty)? I don't need to try it. It's wrong.

7 hours ago, Deegee54 said:

tell you what - go away, try what this PGA teaching Profesional is showing then come back if its a load of garbage.

Did you see my post? I pointed out how many of the things he says he does, he does not do.

And I have been away all day today. You were warned by our moderators. I kinda had a suspicion this topic might get a few posts, but dude… the warning(s) you got were deserved.

Relax.

This shit's just golf.

P.S. In case you missed it, here's the post you ignored before. You'll note that TWICE I said "glad it works for you." Also, previously, I said "I like to play with an open stance" (paraphrased). So, re: that small point, I'm good with it. I don't want all of my players "square" and I prefer slightly open to slightly closed for many players. Anyway, here you go.

22 hours ago, iacas said:

As always, glad it works for you @Deegee54. And I realize you probably searched for "Eureka Golf Swing" and found this thread and wanted to share your happiness with others… but also please realize a lot of people tend to do this sort of thing, but then we rarely see them again and they don't post in other topics, and the almost assumption is that "oh, it stopped working" or something, eventually, and so we get a lot of posts like this from people who have one or two posts only.

Again, glad it "works" for you.

To continue the "discussion" some asked for but didn't want to have earlier… here's a few videos and some quick thoughts on them:

Two main reasons, he says, are:

• The left aim
• What the left arm and hand do in relation to the target

He says the difference between feet line and shoulder line "want to right itself" through impact - i.e. that the shoulders want to get open at impact, too. Hmmmm.

At about 4:42, he says he wants his left arm going "along the target line" but wants his clubhead going out along the yellow stick… to "sustain the line of compression" and the ball starts straight? But if the path is right, it will draw or hook, and we know there's really no such thing as a straight line at this point in the golf swing, so there's really no "sustaining the line of compression." It just doesn't happen. Even in his own videos (note the orange stick pointing "stage right" but the hands and arms going "stage left"):

Now, before I go farther, feel ain't real and the only way to teach everyone is by feels… but this video didn't strike me as "this is a feel." It struck me as "this is what you do." Except… you don't. He doesn't.

He talks about getting "left" but I'd be curious how far "left" he is here… and what the path and face numbers would read on a launch monitor relative to the target line.

Is the "body" getting open here? What would his shoulders or ribs measure on GEARS at either of these? Why are his hands rolling over so hard with so much wrist throw (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)?

At 2:50 he begins "measuring" angles on a 2D video of a 3D world (Adam Scott)… and… dude, no:

Not only can we see a lot more of Adam's left side (his left butt cheek, his left shoulder)… he's trying to apply a 3D measurement to a 2D image (or vice versa). Stuff doesn't work this way.

At 6:14 he says his hips are 48° open… but this is an absolute failure because… the camera height would change things quite a bit. Where you draw the line matters quite a bit. It's a bit like Sergio Garcia and the lag stuff - it appears to be a smaller angle (more "lag") because of the 2D nature of "video".

So, no, you cannot even reasonably accurately measure how "open" the hips are in this way. The HEIGHT of the left hip relative to the right would change things dramatically (and so too would the camera height):

I had to post about this video, and I wrote: "Oh my. You CANNOT accurately measure the angles you're "measuring" in this way."

You cannot. No. Video is HORRIBLE for this type of stuff. Comparing one video to another shot from the SAME location can provide some information, but it's not "measuring."

BTW, PGA Tour players are often about 40° open with the hips, 22° or so open with the chest… and just a little open (like 5°) with the shoulders at impact.

Finally, because I'm a glutton for punishment I guess… I watched this one:

And then I skipped it, because it's clear that in a 3:00 video or whatever, it's not a "full tutorial" at all.

---

Look… @Deegee54 or anyone else…

• I teach things that aren't "real" as well. Everyone does. You have to, to the student in front of you.
• Feel ain't real.
• This guy isn't discussing feels.
• This guy is "measuring" things in ways that you cannot measure things.
• This guy says things that are provably false.

I don't like being lied to. Feel ain't real, often, but it's real to the golfer, but this guy isn't just talking about feels. You're not talking about feels when you draw lines and "measure" things.

I don't like being lied to.

If he's helped you play better golf, then like some feel, it's real for you, and good for you.

But it's not for me, nor would I suspect it's for many people here. We have a lot of golfers here who want to know what ACTUALLY happens, and they realize that they might feel something that isn't actually happening, but they don't like being told you're "measuring" something when you're not. They don't like heavy salesman-like techniques that are more lie than truth, or reality.

This guy's welcome to come on here and engage in an honest discussion. Hell, I'll volunteer up to six hours of GEARS time with me at Golf Evolution to have him swing and measure some things. I suspect he'll avail himself of neither, the latter because he doesn't live in the U.S., and the former because…  he thinks he's "measuring" by drawing lines on a 2D video. But he's welcome all the same, so long as he doesn't take facts personally, like so many "try my great golf swing" charlatans.

 

[Vinsk]

That’s just some damn solid posting there Erik.

[The Flush]

Edited August 17, 2022 by The Flush

[Bo the Golfer]

Being the person that started this post I wanted to say a couple of things. First off, to @iacas and anyone else that read this I apologize for being a little b!@#& to the initial replies. Without getting into it I had a lot of not great stuff going on at the time and reacted from that.

Secondly,  I have posted on here before that I'm that dude that jumps from one new swing theory to the next trying to figure it out on my own. The initial success with this was short lived. Like others have said, if it works for you that's awesome. I now just take Arnie's advice and swing my swing hoping I can get it to a place that gets me to where I want to be in golf. 

This is a great forum with excellent ideas and opinions from people who obviously love this sport. 

[DaveP043]

17 hours ago, Bo the Golfer said:

Like others have said, if it works for you that's awesome. I now just take Arnie's advice and swing my swing hoping I can get it to a place that gets me to where I want to be in golf. 

I'm not sure I agree completely with Mr. Palmer.  Sure, swing your swing, but good instruction can help you build on the positive things you already do in your swing.  Those improvements are hard to come by on your own.  So don't go back to the "Youtube Swing of the Month Club", find someone to help you improve.

[iacas]

18 hours ago, Bo the Golfer said:

Being the person that started this post I wanted to say a couple of things. First off, to @iacas and anyone else that read this I apologize for being a little b!@#& to the initial replies. Without getting into it I had a lot of not great stuff going on at the time and reacted from that.

Here's where I always stand on this type of stuff.

• Everyone is entitled to bad days.
• Apologies are not necessary. They are appreciated, but they're absolutely not necessary.

In other words, we're good. And we've been good since about the day after whatever post(s) you made that you wish you hadn't.

And I hope things are better for you now.

18 hours ago, Bo the Golfer said:

Secondly,  I have posted on here before that I'm that dude that jumps from one new swing theory to the next trying to figure it out on my own. The initial success with this was short lived. Like others have said, if it works for you that's awesome. I now just take Arnie's advice and swing my swing hoping I can get it to a place that gets me to where I want to be in golf. 

This is a great forum with excellent ideas and opinions from people who obviously love this sport. 

Like @DaveP043 said, yes, swing your swing… but work to make your swing better. That typically doesn't mean wholesale "I'm going to try this swing method now" every other month.

[Bo the Golfer]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Here's where I always stand on this type of stuff.

• Everyone is entitled to bad days.
• Apologies are not necessary. They are appreciated, but they're absolutely not necessary.

In other words, we're good. And we've been good since about the day after whatever post(s) you made that you wish you hadn't.

And I hope things are better for you now.

Like @DaveP043 said, yes, swing your swing… but work to make your swing better. That typically doesn't mean wholesale "I'm going to try this swing method now" every other month.

Thank you for the kind words and yes, making my swing and overal game better will be what I work on. You wouldn't happen to know of any golf books that may help with that do you? 😜

[Dizz]

I have been working on the S&T for about 3 months.  I have an Aussie PGA pro friend who thinks Andy Plummer is the smartest guy in golf swings today.  This pro is very very accomplished.  He has worked with Mac and Dana, etc. etc.  I am72, was a 4 index 20 years ago, but have lost it.  8.5 today.  I have had lessons from most of the great teachers over the years.  Andrew Getson, Jim Hardy, and Dahlquist would be at the top of the list in that order.  Getson is just damn hard to see as busy as he is and the others are not close by. 

I took a zoom lesson from Nick Adcock a few weeks ago and it was very helpful.  But I'm still struggling.  Shot 73 last Saturday from the mens tees on a top 5 AZ course and played like crap on Sunday in in an alternate shot format.  So very inconsistent.

Stumbled across Eureka Golf and tried it today.  It's S&T with an open stance!  What the hell is wrong with that!?  Hit it very well on the range today.  Will take it to the course tomorrow.

Erik, am I mistaken or are you a S&T guy?

Thanks.  Like the little bit more civil discourse this site encourages.

sk

[iacas]

On 8/25/2023 at 11:33 PM, Dizz said:

Erik, am I mistaken or are you a S&T guy?

I "was" but we never taught it the way that many taught it (and still teach it). We taught a small pressure shift and a lot of the types of things players actually did but which didn't entirely fit within the S&T framework.

I continue to think "Hands In" are two of the more destructive words in golf instruction from the last 30 years, too.

But, I understand the S&T pattern, and can teach it, absolutely. Still not quite the "weight stays forward, drag the hands around you" thing a lot of people still teach. But I can teach it.

And many of my lessons still have components of it… because those components aren't new to S&T, they're just how good players swing the club.