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Dropped Ball, Found and Played Original

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As soon as the second ball was dropped in a legitimate position, the substituted ball was in play (provided the legitimate position was not in the teeing area, when it is in play when a stroke has been made at it). Regardless of the original being found

See definition of 'In play' and 'Substitute'

Edit: I should have said 'If he had KVC it was in the PA'

 

 

Edited by Rulesman

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"when it is in play when a stroke has been made at it). Regardless of the original being found".  I agree 100% when a stoke has been made at it.  That is the ball you play in and I believe with the penalty as well. 

No stroke was made to the substituted ball prior to the original ball being located 

Edited by JOBS

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19 minutes ago, JOBS said:

"when it is in play when a stroke has been made at it). Regardless of the original being found".  I agree 100% when a stoke has been made at it.  That is the ball you play in and I believe with the penalty as well. 

No stroke was made to the substituted ball prior to the original ball being located 

What @Rulesman is saying (and I know he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that IF you have KVC that the ball is in a penalty area, then the ball is dropped within the rules and becomes the ball in play.  To later find the original NOT in the Penalty Area doesn't change anything about the KVC you had when you dropped the ball.  

I've gone back and forth on this i my mind.  I think the sequence is important.  Say you believe your ball is in the penalty area, you're virtually certain its in the PA, so you drop accordingly.  That ball is substituted within the rules, the exceptions from 14.5a don't apply, and the dropped ball becomes the ball in play.  

The other potential sequence is that you're NOT sure the ball is in the PA, you drop one quickly to save time before you look in the surrounding areas, you find the original within the search time, so the original remains the ball in play.  You could face a penalty for taking a drop without KVC, I'm not sure, perhaps when you pick up the dropped ball you correct your mistake before taking a stroke with it.  I could see this happening in casual play, it would be a bad way to go about things in a competition.

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14.4 

The player has a ball in play again only when he or she:

  • Plays the original ball or another ball from the teeing area, or
  • Replaces, drops or places the original ball or another ball on the course with the intent for that ball to be in play
 
5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

The other potential sequence is that you're NOT sure the ball is in the PA, you drop one quickly to save time before you look in the surrounding areas, you find the original within the search time, so the original remains the ball in play.  You could face a penalty for taking a drop without KVC, I'm not sure, perhaps when you pick up the dropped ball you correct your mistake before taking a stroke with it. .

No penalty, you are simply correcting a mistake.

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Thank you all for the clarification.

Although, I am still more than ever confused now between rules 14.4 and 14.5.  Rule 14.4 talks about the Original Ball being out of play which technically my ball was never out of play upon finding it. I do believe 100% if I had struck the dropped ball that was the ball I needed to play in regardless of finding my original ball afterwards. The intent then would have been to play ball the dropped ball all the way in. 

So I guess I feel that there is much left to the interpretation as to why either one of us would think the way we do. Thanks again for all of your thoughts. 

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I need to repeat my earlier question: At the time you dropped a ball, did you have knowledge or virtually certainty that the original ball was in the penalty area? Please note, it doesn't matter if the original was found in or outside the penalty area. What matters is what you had determined before you dropped.

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5 hours ago, JOBS said:

Yes, we called it in the water and dropped in the correct area as a hazard drop.  Then we found the original. 

You can't just "call it in the water". If, before dropping, you had knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball was in the penalty area, then your drop was correct and the dropped ball is in play. It's too late to play the found original. In fact, it is now a wrong ball.

On the other hand, if you did NOT have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original was in the penalty area, then you have proceeded under an inapplicable Rule. You must not play the dropped ball. In this case you can proceed with the found original.

It's possible to have knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball is in a penalty area when in fact it is not. It's also possible NOT to have knowledge or virtual certainty even when the original is later found in the penalty area! Yes, you read that correctly! It all depends on what is known BEFORE the drop.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Wendy Dominick said:

You can't just "call it in the water". If, before dropping, you had knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball was in the penalty area, then your drop was correct and the dropped ball is in play. It's too late to play the found original. In fact, it is now a wrong ball.

On the other hand, if you did NOT have knowledge or virtual certainty that the original was in the penalty area, then you have proceeded under an inapplicable Rule. You must not play the dropped ball. In this case you can proceed with the found original.

It's possible to have knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball is in a penalty area when in fact it is not. It's also possible NOT to have knowledge or virtual certainty even when the original is later found in the penalty area! Yes, you read that correctly! It all depends on what is known BEFORE the drop.

@Wendy Dominick is making the same distinction I tried to make in my post 121.  If it was known or virtually certain that your ball was in the penalty area BEFORE you dropped the second one, the second one is the ball in play, no matter where you find your original ball.  If it was not known or virtually certain before you dropped the second ball, and subsequently found the original, the original is in play.  The dropped ball was probably substituted illegally since you do not get to take Penalty Area relief unless it IS KVC that the ball is in the PA, but you corrected that mistake by picking it up.

Based on your description of events, you couldn't have known or been virtually certain that the ball was in the Penalty Area, since as you say you hadn't really looked around

Its probably a good thing to look up the definition of known or virtually certain in the rules to get a better understanding.  That standard is a little more stringent than "believing" that the ball had gone into the water.  Next time, you should "gather all available information" (the wording from the definition, meaning look around a bit) before deciding that you're virtually certain of the balls location.

 

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Thank you and yes that actually does make complete sense. I dropped the ball because we didn't see it where we thought it had landed..., then as I posted earlier I looked behind me about 15 ft. before ever striking the dropped (substitute ball).  We had to do something based upon approaching and not seeing it. No we never saw a splash etc. but when we got there what else were we to think. I also knew that I did not hit the ball over the hazard. I just don't have that shot in my bag. 

The conclusion was when we got up there that the ball had rolled in. Bad bounce or something.  We knew at the time given our options that we were S.O.L.. Ball is in the water you take your medicine and you drop. So we dropped and then saw the original.  Truthfully, we never really over analyzed the shot on the way up to it. So based on the KVC issue we had to think it went it in.  It's kind of like the which comes first the chicken or the egg.  The Ball wasn't there, near water, logical conclusion is that the ball rolled in and we didn't see it happen. Disappointing but it happens. 

I guess my point is that of course when we dropped we thought we had to hit the dropped ball or why else would we have dropped it. So I believe it's hard to say that there wasn't intent to hit the ball once it was dropped. We didn't see my original.  However, when I saw my ball I realized that we had taken an unnecessary drop if that makes sense and proceeded to not to hit the dropped ball. 

Thank you Dave. 

Edited by JOBS

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1 minute ago, JOBS said:

I guess my point is that of course when we dropped we thought we had to hit the dropped ball or why else would we have dropped it. So I believe it's hard to say that there wasn't intent to hit the ball once it was dropped or why bother or why bother dropping it. However, when I saw my ball I realized that we had taken an unnecessary drop if that makes sense and proceeded to not to hit the dropped ball. 

Fair enough, in your mind you did have virtual certainty that the ball was in the penalty area, and THEN you dropped your ball in the appropriate Relief Area.  That ball is in play.  You didn't make a mistake to be corrected, you legally substituted a ball for one that was virtually certain to be lost in the Penalty Area.  This is pretty clear from 17.1c

Quote

c. Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:

  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.

  • Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:

    • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.

    • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

The second ball is put in play as soon as it is dropped, per 14.4

Quote

The player has a ball in play again only when he or she:

  • Plays the original ball or another ball from the teeing area, or

  • Replaces, drops or places the original ball or another ball on the course with the intent for that ball to be in play.

You didn't need to play a stroke with the second ball, it became the ball in play as soon as you dropped it.

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If you don't see the ball in the hazard or at least see it splash, how can it be KVC that it is in the hazard as opposed to a lost ball?

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I think the KVC issue is a new one for me.  I did what I thought you are suppose to do when you hit into a water hazard. Upon dropping under those circumstances anyone's dropped ball would be considered dropped with the intent to hit? Why else would you drop it? You have to drop as those are the rules, which would force intent if that makes sense. You don't have a choice if you intend to finish out the hole. It appears as if this is all decided prior to reaching the Penalty Area so there is no question about the substitute ball. 

I thought KVC meant after reading these posts that you are certain that upon approaching the hazard you know without a doubt that your ball landed in the hazard, therefore,  it is absolutely logical that any ball dropped has to be used as the substitute ball. No exceptions and hit with intent with the penalty. 

Sorry for babbling. 

Edited by JOBS

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33 minutes ago, JOBS said:

I thought KVC meant after reading these posts that you are certain that upon approaching the hazard you know without a doubt that your ball landed in the hazard, therefore,  it is absolutely logical that any ball dropped has to be used as the substitute ball. No exceptions and hit with intent with the penalty. 

This is why I suggested you read the actual definition.  Unless you find your ball in the Penalty Area, or see it hit and remain in the water, you don't really know without a doubt that the ball is in there.  I've seen balls skip a few times and end up on dry land, I've seen balls plug just short of the penalty area, even throw up a little splash.  What the rules expect you to do is gather all available information (meaning take a look around, ask anyone who might have been close enough to see where the ball went, etc.) and come to a conclusion.  A small degree of doubt is acceptable, 95% certainty is what the rule suggests.  This is where you can improve on what you did, take a decent look around before you decide to drop a ball next time.

 

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55 minutes ago, The Flush said:

If you don't see the ball in the hazard or at least see it splash, how can it be KVC that it is in the hazard as opposed to a lost ball?

As an example...

You see the ball bounding over a fairly steep bank that goes directly into a pond.  The bank is closely mown, and there are no weeds or even rough to hide a ball.  Although you didn’t actually see it enter the penalty area (pond), you have virtual certainty that it’s in the water.

The same scenario, but with long rough and weeds on the way down the bank could easily take away that virtual certainty because it’s possible, even if less than likely, that the ball didn’t ultimately end up in the penalty area...

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2 hours ago, JOBS said:

Thank you and yes that actually does make complete sense. I dropped the ball because we didn't see it where we thought it had landed..., then as I posted earlier I looked behind me about 15 ft. before ever striking the dropped (substitute ball).  We had to do something based upon approaching and not seeing it. No we never saw a splash etc. but when we got there what else were we to think. I also knew that I did not hit the ball over the hazard. I just don't have that shot in my bag. 

The conclusion was when we got up there that the ball had rolled in. Bad bounce or something.  We knew at the time given our options that we were S.O.L.. Ball is in the water you take your medicine and you drop. So we dropped and then saw the original.  Truthfully, we never really over analyzed the shot on the way up to it. So based on the KVC issue we had to think it went it in.  It's kind of like the which comes first the chicken or the egg.  The Ball wasn't there, near water, logical conclusion is that the ball rolled in and we didn't see it happen. Disappointing but it happens. 

Based on what you described here, I don't believe you could have been virtually certain your ball ended up in the penalty area.

2 hours ago, The Flush said:

If you don't see the ball in the hazard or at least see it splash, how can it be KVC that it is in the hazard as opposed to a lost ball?

One time I had a twosome driving down an adjacent hole flag me down and tell me one of our shots rolled into a penalty area. Since my shot was the only one we didn't have sight of, I knew it was in the penalty area 😃

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2 hours ago, billchao said:

Based on what you described here, I don't believe you could have been virtually certain your ball ended up in the penalty area.

This.

If your ball could be ANYWHERE else, it's likely not KVC to be in the penalty area.

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