2019 Presidents Cup

[Herkimer]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

So what? You have an opinion as to who might be better choices to play than Tiger. Sounds like a decent discussion. No reason to duck it. Hell for alternate shot I’d like to have Cameron Champ in there. 

It just so happens that Champ is one of my 4 picks, especially after today.  I'd pick Varner, Snedeker and Howell over Tiger.  

[Vinsk]

23 minutes ago, Herkimer said:

It just so happens that Champ is one of my 4 picks, especially after today.  I'd pick Varner, Snedeker and Howell over Tiger.  

Well Tiger does have a good PC record, better than his RC. I don’t put near the interest in the PC as I do the RC. I didn’t care for Tiger playing in the last RC. 

[HJJ003]

59 minutes ago, billchao said:

I have never been excited for a Presidents' Cup, and this year won't be any different.

Seriously, just give the US the W already and lets move on.

Agreed. Least favorite of international competitions. Though I’m still a sucker and will watch it. 

[Herkimer]

5 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Well Tiger does have a good PC record, better than his RC. I don’t put near the interest in the PC as I do the RC. I didn’t care for Tiger playing in the last RC. 

For a man of his extraordinary gifts, his RC record is really bad.  But even though his PC record is much better, to me it really doesn't mean that much at this stage of his game.  In these matches, anybody can win and anybody can lose.  Tiger certainly has proven that.  But he's Captain and he should concentrate on that.  Every Captain has told us how much work goes into it and how much time is necessary for them to do the duties that they are tasked.  No one wants to admit that they're older and can't do what they once could do.  Of course Tiger thinks he's better than everyone else even now and should be playing. I hope that he doesn't even give himself a chance to embarrass himself by playing in this Cup.  

10 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

Agreed. Least favorite of international competitions. Though I’m still a sucker and will watch it. 

You're not a sucker. You're a golf lover.  This is going to be a great cup and the matches are going to be very exciting. They always are.  

What I'm going to say now will seem contradictory to what I said above. But if Tiger is more interested in excitement, rather than winning the cup, then he should play.  Who wouldn't want to see if he still has it?  [Not me.]

[Vinsk]

13 minutes ago, Herkimer said:

Tiger thinks he's better than everyone else even now and should be playing.

I don’t think he thinks that at all. He loves golf and loves competing. He’s the GOAT. He just won the last Masters. Why shouldn’t he be playing? He’s not a John Daly or a Mark O’Meara who have zero chance at a major but still get in there and play. The field is crazy deep now and Tiger won The Masters. I don’t think you’re giving enough credit to him.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Herkimer said:

It just so happens that Champ is one of my 4 picks, especially after today.  I'd pick Varner, Snedeker and Howell over Tiger.  

Ha. Yeah, okay.

• Champ won the same off-season event two years in a row and missed 11 cuts and WDd once in 2019. His game would not be a good fit for Royal Melbourne.
• Varner finished 102nd in the FedExCup and had ONE top-three finish.
• Snedeker had a second-place finish in 2019. No other top-three finishes.
• Howell won once and had five top-10 finishes, with no other top-threes.

Tiger finished top 10 in 1/3 of the events he entered, winning the Masters.

Yeah, no, maybe Charles, maybe Brandt… but Tiger has Varner and Champ beat handily.

Handily.

1 hour ago, Herkimer said:

For a man of his extraordinary gifts, his RC record is really bad.

And most of Ryder Cup matches are partner events.

1 hour ago, Herkimer said:

No one wants to admit that they're older and can't do what they once could do.

Again, dude, he just won the f***ing Masters. Did Champ, Varner, Snedeker, or Howell do that? Hell, they have two regular event wins between them in 2019.

1 hour ago, Herkimer said:

Of course Tiger thinks he's better than everyone else even now and should be playing.

IMO he's better than any of the four players you listed.

[Herkimer]

Tiger was cut at the PGA Championship and cut at The Open.  He withdrew from the Northern Trust and was 37th at the BMW.  He also didn't qualify for Atlanta.  He played great for 4 days 6 months ago.  He's had multiple operations and has had back issues since April.  Captains are really busy and I'll bet they don't get much rest.  I want my players to be rested, especially if they have back issues and are in their forties.  

If he weren't the captain, I might reevaluate.

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, Herkimer said:

Tiger was cut at the PGA Championship and cut at The Open.  He withdrew from the Northern Trust and was 37th at the BMW.  He also didn't qualify for Atlanta.  He played great for 4 days 6 months ago.  He's had multiple operations and has had back issues since April.  Captains are really busy and I'll bet they don't get much rest.  I want my players to be rested, especially if they have back issues and are in their forties.

And he's still clearly better than two of the four players you listed, and has had success at Royal Melbourne, and is still 8th in the OWGR despite playing only 31 events with a divisor of 40 over the last two years.

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, Herkimer said:

It just so happens that Champ is one of my 4 picks, especially after today.  I'd pick Varner, Snedeker and Howell over Tiger.  

I like those four players, but who wants to see them play instead of Tiger? Hell, I would pick Jack over any of them in his current state. It is a made for TV event and viewers would rather see the GOAT than journeymen who had a good tournament or two.

[Herkimer]

If I didn't care about winning, I'd love to see Jack partnered with Tiger in Foursomes.  Against Gary Player partnered with Jason Day.  Now that's an exhibition!

[Wally Fairway]

I've never really followed the President's Cup that much; it seems like a forced event trying to mimic the Ryder Cup. But the Ryder Cup has history on it's side, and this year playing in December makes it unconnected to the season that ended in August. And playing the matches with a 14 hour time difference isn't going to make me watch many matches live.

[rehmwa]

18 hours ago, Herkimer said:

I also happen to think it's unfair for any Captain to pick himself.  It's hardly fair and objective.

 

Automatically excluding himself in spite of a fair review, would be just as biased as automatically including himself in spite of a fair review.

A lack of bias does NOT equal self sacrifice.  that's a pretty common fallacy.  and giving priority to appearances over fact and reality is just plain bad logic and bad leadership.

I would reconsider your definition of objectivity.  It absolutely fair and objective as long as he assesses himself with the same criteria as the rest.  I think you mean that you personally have a bias that others in that situation are not capable of objectively comparing themselves to others? (your followup post are pretty clear on that).

It's his duty to consider every American top player.  He's on that list.

Edited September 30, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

It's his duty to consider every American top player.  He's on that list.

In fact he’s near the top of that list.

And he can delegate some captain responsibilities to assistants. And if he plays foursomes that’s only ~15 full swings per round.

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, Herkimer said:

If I didn't care about winning, I'd love to see Jack partnered with Tiger in Foursomes.  Against Gary Player partnered with Jason Day.  Now that's an exhibition!

I think Jason would get tired of all the talking from Gary. 

[Herkimer]

2 hours ago, rehmwa said:

Automatically excluding himself in spite of a fair review, would be just as biased as automatically including himself in spite of a fair review.

A lack of bias does NOT equal self sacrifice.  that's a pretty common fallacy.  and giving priority to appearances over fact and reality is just plain bad logic and bad leadership.

I would reconsider your definition of objectivity.  It absolutely fair and objective as long as he assesses himself with the same criteria as the rest.  I think you mean that you personally have a bias that others in that situation are not capable of objectively comparing themselves to others? (your followup post are pretty clear on that).

It's his duty to consider every American top player.  He's on that list.

No matter how fair a judge might be, in certain instances, he would have to recuse himself.  If any Captain did not automatically qualify to be a player in any Cup, for the sake of total impartiality, he shouldn't be his own judge.  

[rehmwa]

for chrissake - now he's a judge and has to recuse himself

I thought this was a game.

"Captain's picks" - by definition it's based on the captain's subjective assessment.  by definition it's his personal bias on what he thinks is best to round out the team.  ---- it actually who he is 'partial' to fill out it out.  else they'd all be automatic picks.  the captain is chosen to make that decision for any scenario - it's the role of the position

luckily it's not a murder trial

Edited September 30, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Herkimer said:

No matter how fair a judge might be, in certain instances, he would have to recuse himself.  If any Captain did not automatically qualify to be a player in any Cup, for the sake of total impartiality, he shouldn't be his own judge.  

Uhhhh, no.

It’s not like he wants to play to embarrass himself if he wasn’t actually ready. I think he knows whether he’ll be in shape to play.

[Vinsk]

It’s the same tired attitude regarding Tiger:

1. He’s done. Shouldn’t be playing.

2. He looked okay.

3. Ok, he won a tournament. Let’s see how he progresses.
4. Gosh, he won a major! Go Tiger!

5. He missed some cuts.

6. He’s done. Shouldn’t be playing. 
 

Ridiculous. He’s fit for the PC. Has every right and statistic to compete.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Vinsk